2015+ coyote

[ashford]

i know most of the differences between gen 1 and 2 coyote, the big question is if the existing code can do the cam phasing or not.
what is new is a mid-lock cam phaser. it locks in the middle of the sweep when the actuator is off. low duty cycle and high dc retards and advances the same thing as previous gen. i am unsure how it gets to the lock position does it require a full apply to the actuator before shutting it off or does it move to it by itself.

the other possible difference is the reluctor, it appears to be the same reluctor but it may be indexed different. snooping around in hp tuners gen 1 has absolute values ie 0-50 where the gen 2 has -25 to 25

[RXBeetle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LujjabNt87Y
0% duty to lock, it moves to locked position by itself.

[ashford]

ordered an engine, this is to replace one i burnt up via plugged cat on 1 bank

[ashford]

the answer to this is no the current code can't run 2015+ engines. it appears the offsets for the intake cams need to be changed.
i did a bit of quick testing and will supply more info after work.
needs to have wasted cop to run, removing 360 makes it run but something is wrong it misfires and swaps full and half sync rapidly. this may be that vvt1 is in a bad position till there is oil pressure to get to mid lock

with the cams in midlock position, ie no power to the solenoid it reports angles very close to what the older engines fully retarded( near zero)
with engine warmed up and suddenly droping enable temp point it will start to control cams in a smaller window but if it gets out of range it goes to hell.

[ashford]

i have the vvt working somewhat, cannot use coil on plug mode though. as long as it stays in a window it works fine, getting it there requires a throttle blip then is fine.
i took composite logs in vvt test mode. no duty = mid lock >30 <45= low angles greater than 50= high angle. it looks that the intake cam moves 70 crank degrees?!?!

i think a simple tweak in offsets in the code and it would work.

[ashford]

i was able to get 60 of the 70 degrees of sweep to function but cannot get it to run right in cop mode

[ashford]

it turns out that ford changed the firing order in 2015 for f150 only(thanks rxbeetle). ill keep it in wast cop and also change it to semi sequential as i don't know how long the motor is going to stay with these cams.
running it at the track last weekend it ran a 13.10@108 vs the 13.35@105 on the older motor. the older did have quite a bit more low end torque though.

ill update as things move along

[jsimmons]

Interesting.. i wonder if ill run into any issues when i upgrade to gt350 heads on my car.. i plan to lock the cams before then but wonder if the sensor pick up might be setup at a different angle since those heads require special cams.



You must not be getting after it very hard with that car, i would fifure it would post better times than that. Mine has been 10.58 at 125 on the best 1/4 pass.. best 1/8th time was 6.64 at 103.

[ashford]

Interesting.. i wonder if ill run into any issues when i upgrade to gt350 heads on my car.. i plan to lock the cams before then but wonder if the sensor pick up might be setup at a different angle since those heads require special cams.



You must not be getting after it very hard with that car, i would fifure it would post better times than that. Mine has been 10.58 at 125 on the best 1/4 pass.. best 1/8th time was 6.64 at 103.

you are correct, the car is a 99 with all factory options still retained, ac, cruise, power windows etc on a 235 tire and stock 4r70w. this car was going to be the replacement for my race car when it sells, i just threw in my spare coyote to get the platform/wiring done and make the car usable in the meantime. turns out it is a nice to drive car so i left it alone.

track times were done by my friends wife 2nd time at the track trying to get her to run the in the "powder puff" class

[jsimmons]

Sounds like a fun street car. Put some drag radials on it and it should have no problems getting into the low 12s or high 11s.. I hope to start building another car for the street in the next year or two. Lots of stuff to do on my race car first though.

[ashford]

i would like to revisit this in order to get this newer engine sorted out if there are any new firmwares being released. i am convinced the first 20* or so from minimum advance(ie low duty cycle) is in an unreadable range in the code. changing vvt angles in settings cannot get this range to work. if i base things off the midlock around 20*s or so retarded from midlock( midlock is about 40* away from fully retarded and about 30* from fully advanced) i get vvt errors. this might be related to the older engine having vvt3 errors unless it was pulled up a few degrees as it is a retaded from vvt1 about 5 degrees.

currently i have the intake phasers unplugged as this is runable this way, another workaround i can think of is to install travel limiters in the phasers. i plan to pull the car out of storage in about 2 months.

the zip folder in a previous post has the csv's with mid low and high dc on vvt1

[ashford]

bump

[Matt Cramer]

Some actuators are set to have a "locked" range at low duty cycles - currently the code lets you set a minimum DC that is above this value to avoid hitting this zone but does not support going into this zone to lock the cam.

[ashford]

Some actuators are set to have a "locked" range at low duty cycles - currently the code lets you set a minimum DC that is above this value to avoid hitting this zone but does not support going into this zone to lock the cam.

the problem with this is thatduty cycle changes with oil temp. for example when the car is good and hot a 45% dc will not quite unlock the phaser, when stone cold the hold value is near 45% and the unlock is around 35%.

on the gen 1 vvt works well. the only complaint is that vvt1 errs out below 1 or2 degrees as it is a bit retarded from vvt3 when on the mustang cams(possibly related to gen2 range problem), f150 cams are fine.

i did a bit of experimenting the other day. with a correct tooth #1 and angles configured so that mid lock is reporting 40* i cannot get below 20 without errors and becoming unusable(requires a restart or 2)
i then removed 20* from tooth #1 and the timing table and resetting angles so midlock is 40*. i was able to get around 5 before it erred. i took another 10 from #1 and timing and was able to get a -1 or so before erring, removing anymore from tooth #1 did nothing. another note is that when i took 20* from #1 i was able to max out dc without errors showing and reported about 57 but was jiggling around a bit.

[Matt Cramer]

What if you add a 1N4001 diode across the solenoid, banded end to 12 volts? Does this change the duty cycle range it works in?

[ashford]

What if you add a 1N4001 diode across the solenoid, banded end to 12 volts? Does this change the duty cycle range it works in?

Already has them.

[ashford]

i made an attempt to install comp cams phaser limiters today. long story short gen2 intake phasers have bigger od and depth inside the actuators, exhaust appear to be same dimensionally as gen1. when on the midlock there is plenty of room for them to float around, i put them in anyway if ther is trouble i can unplug the phasers.
with midlock calibrated to 35* i can get vvt1 down to 10* and up to 55*, vvt3 must have turned on me as i cant get it below 24. it rattles at 25 so i set min angle in the tables to 27. no vvt errors whatsoever, only issue is they don't always come off the midlock warm, a quick throttle blip to target an advance above midlock generally fixes this. the next free weekend i get i will have to fabricate limiters myself. i have a lathe, mill and rotary table it should be easy enough.

[matt d]

This may be old news but it’s the first time I read it so I’ll share in case relevant....

In the Holley vvt documentation, they say the 2015-2017 intake cams have a phaser range of 70 degrees. 0 is full advance. -70 is full retard. A cam table would then need to be 20 deg offset from an early cam table.

So midlock phasers added AND range increased. Never noticed mention of the increased range before. Also the Holley is the first aftermarket ecu explicitly claiming to be able to control the 2015-2017 engine, but I’d rather megasquirt my coyote if it works.

Matt




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[ashford]

This may be old news but it’s the first time I read it so I’ll share in case relevant....

In the Holley vvt documentation, they say the 2015-2017 intake cams have a phaser range of 70 degrees. 0 is full advance. -70 is full retard. A cam table would then need to be 20 deg offset from an early cam table.

So midlock phasers added AND range increased. Never noticed mention of the increased range before. Also the Holley is the first aftermarket ecu explicitly claiming to be able to control the 2015-2017 engine, but I’d rather megasquirt my coyote if it works.

Matt




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in megasquirt the table numbers are relative, generally setup so that 0= fully retarded and any number is the advancement from that( for the intake, exhaust is the opposite). it is configurable and less confusing than the ford ecm way of doing things the ford ecm are by valve timing events- ivo and evc relative to tdc. so in their tables(if you can call them that) on a gen 2 you see -50 to 20 on the intake where -50 is advanced and 20 is retarded. also there are differences between f150 and mustang cams the reluctors are installed by valve events so they are actually off if your are measuring by conventional means of tdc at center of valve overlap or if icl is the same the reluctor is moved.

but yea if the gen 2 has the first 20* of travel cut out of the phasers it works just like gen 1 when you get past the midlock

[matt d]

Do you know why megasquirt needs the first 20 deg cut out? Software can’t be adjusted to read the full range?

Thanks.


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