Duratec Triggers?

[Leafy]

I was posting this in the tuning section but after some more dissection I realized it should be here. Still cant get my MZR with duratec wheels to start. Its 36-1 crank with VR and 4+1+1 cam with hall. Kind of at my whits end here since everything I cant find googling says to just use the Zetec triggers but that has one less tooth on the cam. If I could figure out how to get into coyote mode I might be able to make it work that way. Or if I could just figure out the exact phasing of the zetec cam I could grind one of the +1 teeth off this cam and run that way. See attached log in cam and crank logging mode. The +1 teeth are at the following locations ,the first extra cam tooth is 190 btc and 70 crank degrees before the missing tooth gets to the sensor, the second extra cam tooth is 20 btc and 60 deg after the missing tooth passes the sensor

Also I had a strange problem on this one to start, I couldnt register a cam signal at all unless I connected the CMP- to +5V, had to read the MAX9926 documentation to figure that out. This is on an MS3P by the way.

[billr]

Have you tried it as a simple 36-1 toothed wheel, with wasted-COP, to be sure this is *just* a problem with that Duratec config? Get the cam out of the picture until all else is known to be OK.

[Leafy]

Yup, it syncs with 36-1 and all the sequential stuff turned off. That's a pita to switch between the sequential and not.

[prof315]

Actually the easiest way to get a solid clean sync would be to cut all but one of the teeth off of the cam and run the dual wheel w/missing tooth generic decoder. You'll lose some cam angle accuracy but otherwise super easy and reliable. The other possibility is to reinstall the 36-2-2-2 crank pulley as it is meant to work with a 4+1+1 cam trigger.

[prof315]

Also I had a strange problem on this one to start, I couldnt register a cam signal at all unless I connected the CMP- to +5V, had to read the MAX9926 documentation to figure that out. This is on an MS3P by the way.

CKP and CMP on an MZR should both be open collector hall effect and thus require pull-ups added to the CKP+ and CMP+ signal wires with an MS3-Pro.

[Leafy]

Switching back to the mazda crank pulley is not terrible, but it does mean I need to buy new diamond washers and redo the alignment procedure for the engine because this silly thing doesn't have a crank keyway. Why did ford have to change the d*** cam wheel at some random point in duratec production.

If i was going to grind off all but one tooth I should keep the one closest to being before the crank gap but always before the gap even at max vvt advance. Right? But that means my vvt pid loop point gets feedback once every 2 engine revolutions. I wish I knew how the Zetec encoder was setup so I could figure out how to get my crank there.

I have a pull-up on the cmp+ but I have a vr ckp. If I could find a vr cmp for this engine (available in the USA, the EU duratec got vr) I'd switch, I always run into weak signal when hot issues on hall effect sensors. The hall sensor on there now doesn't have a very large delta V on my oscope, with a 1k Pull-up, 6.5v to 8v.

[jsmcortina]

I'm sure that cam pattern is already supported within one of the existing ignition modes.
Perhaps "Mazda6 2.3 VVT" ?

James

[Leafy]

I'm sure that cam pattern is already supported within one of the existing ignition modes.
Perhaps "Mazda6 2.3 VVT" ?

James

I don't see that option in TS or in the MS3P manual.

[jsmcortina]

If I remember correctly, DIYAutoTune asked for that not to show up for MS3-Pro.

James

[Leafy]

If I remember correctly, DIYAutoTune asked for that not to show up for MS3-Pro.

James

Well thats annoying. Can I just change the TS.ini file to allow it to show?

[letitsnow]

The "Mazda6 2.3 VVT" setting appears in the table for supported ignitions on the MS3Pro manual on pg56.

[jsmcortina]

If I remember correctly, DIYAutoTune asked for that not to show up for MS3-Pro.

James

Well thats annoying. Can I just change the TS.ini file to allow it to show?

Yes.
In your TunerStudio project, open the file maincontroller.ini and find the line with:

Code: Select all

"Honda TSX/D17", "INVALID", "Viper V10"

and change that part to:

Code: Select all

"Honda TSX/D17", "Mazda6 2.3 VVT", "Viper V10"

James

[Leafy]

To update, installed the 63-2-2-2 wheel and enabled the Mazda6 2.3 mode on MS3 and still no dice. I get get great RPM signal though, also doesnt really work on the 36-2-2-2 mode sync flickers on once. The composite log makes it look like the crank is seeing its signal like 45 degrees too late. I'm going to have to double check my timing, the engine doesnt have a crank keyway so you have to put all these alignment tools into the engine and then a screw between the pulley and the timing chain cover to line it all up, and I'm not completely certain that I had the crank counterweight pushed completely against the crank stop pin when setting the timing, or that its even the right pin (theres like debate on what year and who's brand motors got what crank shafts and stuff). If I do have it timed right I think I could just swap the polarity on the cam VR sensor and use rising edge and that would get all the cam double teeth out of the gaps. If that doesnt work I'll need to move the crank sensor 45 degrees counter clockwise (engine turns clockwise). If that gets my sync then I can move the crank pulley 45 degrees clockwise and put the crank sensor back to to where it belongs and it'll be fine. But I'm trying to make sure thats all correct by reading the encoder code in the firmware, I dont want to screw myself and only be able to get like a max of 5degrees of timing advance or anything silly. I attached a log in "log crank and cam".

[Leafy]

Really confused. This should be exactly what the Mazda6 2.3 wants. But I get it to say full-sync in the spot where it will either say full or half sync but it wont give me full rpm sync even if its getting good rpm signal. If I put it in 36-2-2-2 mode it just flickers full rpm sync and full sync and has vvt1 error lit. And of course I dont get spark.



Would it be better if I just went back to the 36-1 crank wheel and bridged over the pairs of cam teeth to make it a "wv" style cam wheel. In another post Cramer made it seem like that's the most supported.

[Leafy]

To update. Contrary to what TS was saying with the lights. Saying the engine was full sync but RPM-not synced even though there was rpm signal. The 36-2-2-2 crank with 4+1+1 cam wheel does work on the MS3P if you enable the Mazda6 2.3 (mode 50) drop down. Why I thought it wasnt working was both the indicators in TS and not getting any flashing on the timing light or actual spark. Jammed the scope lead into the signal pin on the coil connector and I get a nice looking coil signal. Much head scratching happened until I realized that the stock coils for the MZR and Duratec motors are 2 wire and duh, 2 wire coils require an external ignitor always. Run down to the junk yard, grab some gm truck coils from a yukon and some plug wires from a 2001+ 2.3 ranger and some wiring later it starts right up.

Oh I also discovered at some point on there that the red line in composite logger is the sync state, low is sync high is loss basically. The manual only says about the red line that its not important and to ignore it for now then never go back and say WTF its for. A sentence there explaining what it does would have been incredibly helpful.

[prof315]

To update. Contrary to what TS was saying with the lights. Saying the engine was full sync but RPM-not synced even though there was rpm signal. The 36-2-2-2 crank with 4+1+1 cam wheel does work on the MS3P if you enable the Mazda6 2.3 (mode 50) drop down. Why I thought it wasnt working was both the indicators in TS and not getting any flashing on the timing light or actual spark. Jammed the scope lead into the signal pin on the coil connector and I get a nice looking coil signal. Much head scratching happened until I realized that the stock coils for the MZR and Duratec motors are 2 wire and duh, 2 wire coils require an external ignitor always. Run down to the junk yard, grab some gm truck coils from a yukon and some plug wires from a 2001+ 2.3 ranger and some wiring later it starts right up.

Oh I also discovered at some point on there that the red line in composite logger is the sync state, low is sync high is loss basically. The manual only says about the red line that its not important and to ignore it for now then never go back and say WTF its for. A sentence there explaining what it does would have been incredibly helpful.

Actually the MZR L0 I squirted had Denso 4 wire logic coils. Duratecs do however use 2 wire coils.

The TunerStudio manual found in the links above clearly shows that the red line in the composite logger is for sync loss. Some additional details wouldn't hurt but the basic info is there.