MS3 and sdcard

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nibblet787
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MS3 and sdcard

Post by nibblet787 »

I'm trying to troubleshoot my failed MS2/Extra upgrade to MS3 and I'm getting desperate. I don't have an sdcard to plug into the MS3 at the moment. Will the MS3 still fully function without a card plugged in? I feel it should, but I'm running out of ideas here.
billr
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Re: MS3 and sdcard

Post by billr »

Yes, it will work fine with no SD card. The SD card is only for logging data when the MS is not connected to TunerStudio.
billr
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Re: MS3 and sdcard

Post by billr »

Describe your problems and:
:msq:
nibblet787
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Re: MS3 and sdcard

Post by nibblet787 »

Ok, thank you!
nibblet787
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Re: MS3 and sdcard

Post by nibblet787 »

billr wrote:Describe your problems and:
:msq:
I posted my situation in the TunerStudio sub forum. Perhaps not the best location to ask for help, but the forum rules I've read state that cross-posting to other forums isn't allowed. But here's a link to it:

http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 22&t=68338
billr
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Re: MS3 and sdcard

Post by billr »

I'll address the issues here, rather than the TS forum.

I think your basic problem is that your MS3 settings are trying to drive low-Z (1.2 ohm) TBI injectors from MS3X injector outputs and trying to drive a simple single-coil from an MS3X spark output. Change both of those back to the MS2 settings, using "mainboard" or "standard" injector outputs and "D14" for spark. How about the wiring? Since you can put the MS2 back in and it runs, it sounds like injectors/spark were never wired to the MS3X anyway...

PS: I think the rules are prohibiting cross-linking to complete other sites, not to other forums on this msextra.com site.
nibblet787
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Re: MS3 and sdcard

Post by nibblet787 »

billr wrote:I'll address the issues here, rather than the TS forum.

I think your basic problem is that your MS3 settings are trying to drive low-Z (1.2 ohm) TBI injectors from MS3X injector outputs and trying to drive a simple single-coil from an MS3X spark output. Change both of those back to the MS2 settings, using "mainboard" or "standard" injector outputs and "D14" for spark. How about the wiring? Since you can put the MS2 back in and it runs, it sounds like injectors/spark were never wired to the MS3X anyway...

PS: I think the rules are prohibiting cross-linking to complete other sites, not to other forums on this msextra.com site.
First, thank you for looking into this with me. Second, I'll try to address your suggestions one by one.

1. Can I ask for clarification on terminology? I have a base MS3 with just the daughterboard, no expansion card. Would my setup still be called MS3X? If not, then would I still need to wire my injectors/spark to something else than what I had with my MS2?

2. I can't find a setting for "injector output". The closest I could find is "Main Fuel Outputs" under the "Engine and Sequential Settings" menu. I have now changed it to "Std Fuel"

3. Similar for spark. The closest option I could find is "Spark Hardware In Use" under the "Injection Options / Wheel Encoder". However, there is no D14 option (anymore). Instead, the tooltip now says to set it to "LEDs spark" if one is upgrading from MS2. Is this what you are referring to? Doing a search for D14 in the TunerStudio search box didn't turn up anything better.
nibblet787
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Re: MS3 and sdcard

Post by nibblet787 »

Ok, so I made the changes to my tune, loaded it onto the MS3 and got a conflict message. I'm attaching a screenshot of it. Essentially, there was a conflict when I changed the spark output to "LEDs spark". However, I only found that out by trial and error, because the conflict error message didn't specify what exactly was causing the conflict. So, I changed the spark output to "Tacho" and the car fired up! I'm not sure I understand why LEDs spark conflicted and Tacho was ok, but I'm not going to fight it. I just hope that setting isn't going to come back and bite me in the butt when I go to tune it later. Either way, the car runs as well as it did pre-MS3 upgrade, as far as I can initially tell, and that's all I need to get going.

Thank you very much!!

P.S. I'm also attaching the updated tune, in case anyone wanted to look at the conflict cause.
Attachments
Screenshot 2018-02-17 14.08.14.png
Screenshot 2018-02-17 14.08.14.png (288.24 KiB) Viewed 520 times
MS3_WORKING_2018-02-17_14.01.45.msq
(284.41 KiB) Downloaded 20 times
billr
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Re: MS3 and sdcard

Post by billr »

Sorry, I can't help you understand the differences between "tacho", LED spark", etc. I started out with MS3X spark/fuel outputs (even before I had an MS3X), so never really studied those others much. The few times I have used my MS for "single-coil" I have used LEDs spark (and the standard BIP373 driver on the mainboard), so I know that can work.
jsmcortina
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Re: MS3 and sdcard

Post by jsmcortina »

"Tacho" spark output means that the MS3X "Tacho" pin is being used for spark control.
I'm not able to view the MSQ at the moment, but it sounds like your ignition coil control is physically coming from LED14 which is now operating at a semi-random time (because it isn't configured as spark output.) You must fix that.
Strobe your timing to see that it is wrong and/or there is no dwell control.

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
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nibblet787
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Re: MS3 and sdcard

Post by nibblet787 »

jsmcortina wrote:"Tacho" spark output means that the MS3X "Tacho" pin is being used for spark control.
I'm not able to view the MSQ at the moment, but it sounds like your ignition coil control is physically coming from LED14 which is now operating at a semi-random time (because it isn't configured as spark output.) You must fix that.
Strobe your timing to see that it is wrong and/or there is no dwell control.

James
Is this something that still needs to be fixed if the car starts and runs (seemingly) well? I have no idea what your diagnosis means, much less how to fix it, so I'm really hoping it can continue to run like it is.
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Re: MS3 and sdcard

Post by jsmcortina »

What timing does your strobe show?

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
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nibblet787
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Re: MS3 and sdcard

Post by nibblet787 »

jsmcortina wrote:What timing does your strobe show?

James
My fancy schmancy timing light says it's at 43 degrees, which is what I have entered in the Trigger Wizard and that's also what it was running at before upgrading to the MS3.

EDIT: Off topic question: Is there a way to adjust TunerStudio's reading of my Innovate LC-1? I noticed a long time ago that it's consistently around 0.5 higher in TunerStudio than what the actual digital display shows. It hasn't been much of an issue, but it'd be nice to tweak.
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Re: MS3 and sdcard

Post by jsmcortina »

nibblet787 wrote:I have no idea what your diagnosis means, much less how to fix it, so I'm really hoping it can continue to run like it is.
My diagnosis means that you are not controlling timing with the way you have it wired.

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
New users, please read the "Forum Help Page".
nibblet787
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Re: MS3 and sdcard

Post by nibblet787 »

jsmcortina wrote:
nibblet787 wrote:I have no idea what your diagnosis means, much less how to fix it, so I'm really hoping it can continue to run like it is.
My diagnosis means that you are not controlling timing with the way you have it wired.

James
Ok, fair enough. Right now, it's wired for a Hall sensor for use with an MSD distributor and MSD 6a ignition box. At least, that's what I believe it to be. I assembled the whole thing 6 years ago, so I'm struggling to remember, sorry.

Regardless, do you have a suggestion about how I can fix this so I can control timing again?

EDIT: Now I'm a little confused. I'm reading through the MS3x assembly manual and it also mentions a setup for a VR sensor. I can't find info on which type of sensor an MSD HEI distributor uses...
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Re: MS3 and sdcard

Post by jsmcortina »

So you say you have your spark output (MSD white wire?) controlled from D14. In that case, why do you have D14 set as an on/off output ?
You have "JS10" configured as your tacho output. Often with an MSD I'd expect the tacho to be connected to the tacho output on the MSD box.

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
New users, please read the "Forum Help Page".
billr
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Re: MS3 and sdcard

Post by billr »

It seems like the MSQ settings have changed from when last posted. Furnishing the current MSQ may help.
nibblet787
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Re: MS3 and sdcard

Post by nibblet787 »

jsmcortina wrote:So you say you have your spark output (MSD white wire?) controlled from D14. In that case, why do you have D14 set as an on/off output ?
You have "JS10" configured as your tacho output. Often with an MSD I'd expect the tacho to be connected to the tacho output on the MSD box.

James
I apologize if I wasn't clearer before, but when I set it to JS10, TS gives me a conflict error that says it's being used by Tacho. So that's why I'm using Tacho as my spark output setting. I just mapped out a bunch of stuff on my setup and my Tacho output from my MSD 6A is actually connected to my kill switch (which is connected to ground on the other side of the switch). Instead, I'm using my MSD HEI's VR wires as my Tacho output on the relay board. In addition, the white wire coming from the MSD 6A feeds into S5 (IGN) on the relay board. I don't know where, when, or why D14 comes into play, because I can't seem to find meaningful info in any of the assembly manuals I've been referencing.

However, this whole ordeal has brought into light a harsh oversight on my part. For whatever reason, when I assembled this 6 years ago I completely overlooked the final jumper wires that selected VR vs. Hall. I installed jumper wires for other things, such as IAC, but somehow forgot this. So the steps I missed are:

a) Solder a link between VRIN and TACHSELECT
b) Solder a wire between VrOUT and TSEL

I also missed half of another related step. I don't know how or why... I jumped IGBTIN to JS10, but NOT IGBTOUT to IGN.

Would completing these steps give me timing control like you originally mentioned, James?
billr wrote:It seems like the MSQ settings have changed from when last posted. Furnishing the current MSQ may help.
I made a few changes to bring it inline with the recommended settings for MSD 6A, but nothing has changed how the engine runs. I.e., it still starts and runs fine. I'll attach my latest tune here
Attachments
MS3_WORKING_2018-02-21_14.47.08.msq
(284.49 KiB) Downloaded 21 times
jsmcortina
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Re: MS3 and sdcard

Post by jsmcortina »

This gets more confusing and you seem to be mixing up terminology of inputs and outputs.

You need:
1. Trigger pickup of some kind -> Megasquirt tach input (pin 24)
AND
2. Megasquirt spark output -> MSD box white wire.

You might also have:
3. MSD tacho output -> rev counter
OR (not both)
4. Megasquirt tachometer output -> rev counter

To achieve 1, you need to:
a. connect wires to a trigger pickup and connect them to the Megasquirt tach input.
b. setup the Megasquirt internal wiring and jumpers to match the type of input signal electrically
c. configure the Megasquirt software to match the type of input signal pattern

To achieve 2, you need to:
a. connect a wire from the Megasquirt pin 36 (typically) to your MSD box white wire.
b. setup the Megasquirt internal wiring/jumpers/circuits to connect your chosen processor pin to pin 36 (typically).
c. configure the Megasquirt software to put out a spark control signal on the processor pin you are using.

From your current description I'm unsure if you have done any of this.
All of the above is covered in the MS3 Hardware Manual that you'll find under the "Manuals" link above.

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
New users, please read the "Forum Help Page".
nibblet787
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Re: MS3 and sdcard

Post by nibblet787 »

jsmcortina wrote: To achieve 1, you need to:
a. connect wires to a trigger pickup and connect them to the Megasquirt tach input.
b. setup the Megasquirt internal wiring and jumpers to match the type of input signal electrically
c. configure the Megasquirt software to match the type of input signal pattern
a. I'm using the VR+ wire from my MSD HEI distributor. It's on the correct pin according to the MS3 manual.
b. Yeah, that's part of what I outlined that I missed
c. I'll of course do that once I get the first two steps
jsmcortina wrote: To achieve 2, you need to:
a. connect a wire from the Megasquirt pin 36 (typically) to your MSD box white wire.
b. setup the Megasquirt internal wiring/jumpers/circuits to connect your chosen processor pin to pin 36 (typically).
c. configure the Megasquirt software to put out a spark control signal on the processor pin you are using.
a. Yes, I have that correctly installed from the MSD 6A box
b. Aren't these the same jumpers that would accomplish step b. of the previous quote? If not, I might be confused or missing something. Right now, I have the white wire from my MSD 6A box connected to this pin.
c. Same as above
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