Sequential support for 36-2-2-2

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Sequential support for 36-2-2-2

Postby Joe Perez » Fri Jun 18, 2010 1:04 pm

I'm getting ready to do a build involving a Subaru EJ255 flat-four. There's a lot of weird stuff on this engine, including not one but two variable intake cams, each with its own sensor. (There's also a fly-by-wire throttle, but that will obviously be going away.)

If need be, I can probably lock down the intake cams to a static position, but I'd like to know if support is planned for running this engine with fully sequential fuel and spark. I spoke with Jean earlier about doing it with MS2, and he informed me that there's no support for a cam signal at all when in 36-2-2-2 mode. Wondering if that's on the plate for MS3 at some point.
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Re: Sequential support for 36-2-2-2

Postby swiffy » Thu Jul 01, 2010 10:48 pm

i too have a subaru that im building to run 10s (1/4 mile) and planning to use the ms3 as the brain. i plan to run the 8 injector setup and the vvt as im using the 04 US sti heads. i hope that the ms3 (just purchased) will be able to see the cam angles as we adjust the vvt so we can better fine tune the engine.
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Re: Sequential support for 36-2-2-2

Postby muythaibxr » Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:31 am

MS3 already supports the addition of a cam wheel on this pattern for seq use.

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Re: Sequential support for 36-2-2-2

Postby Joe Perez » Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:39 am

So, no VVT, but we can get full sequential? That's a decent compromise.

I feel like a bit of an idiot for asking, but I can't for the life of me find documentation on this.
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Re: Sequential support for 36-2-2-2

Postby muythaibxr » Fri Jul 02, 2010 7:58 pm

That might not have been added to the docs yet. Docs are currently our focus right now unless bugs are found.

VVT can be done open loop right now... We just don't have closed loop control for it yet.

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Re: Sequential support for 36-2-2-2

Postby Joe Perez » Fri Jul 02, 2010 8:45 pm

Gotcha. Normally, I'm the one who gets to be a smartass and post a link to the exact spot in the documentation where someone's question is answered. I hate being on the other end of that stick. :RTFM:

I think I'll hold out for closed-loop, simply because with a flat-four you have two intake cams, and I really don't want to chance there being any sort of imbalance in the control system resulting in half of my cylinders running at one VE and the other half at another. I've still not given up hope that I can pare down the stock wiring harness (which I do, fortunately, have) far enough to fit into the recipient without pissing off the ECU too much.

Is the ultimate plan to support the Subaru's dual 4-1 cam sensors (to allow bona fide closed-loop on both cams), or is twin second trigger input and twin VVT output not likely to happen?
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Re: Sequential support for 36-2-2-2

Postby jsmcortina » Sat Jul 03, 2010 5:03 am

Do you have any technical details of the cam signal and phasing?

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Re: Sequential support for 36-2-2-2

Postby muythaibxr » Sat Jul 03, 2010 7:56 am

With 1.1 we'll probably support 1 cam... with 2.0 once the angle clock is in we'll probably add support for as many as we can.

That said, as James says, we need information about the phasing.

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Re: Sequential support for 36-2-2-2

Postby Joe Perez » Sat Jul 03, 2010 1:17 pm

I'll give you what I have so far, and I can grab some better detail if need be.

The crank is a 36-2-2-2. Here is a capture of the the crank and the #1 ignition trigger, to illustrate the relationship between the crank signal and TDC. In this capture, the engine is idling, and timing should be at around 17° BTDC, however I didn't explicitly measure it. The spark event occurs on the falling edge of the trigger:

Image



Here's what the manual has to say about the timing relationship between the crank and cams:
Image

They do not state the conditions of this signal, however I assume it to be at idle, which according to the AVCS map I pulled out of RomRaider should put the cams at either zero advance or 10° of advance.

I also took scope measurements of these signals. Here is the crank and the right hand camshaft (right as viewed from the perspective of the driver, which would be cylinders 1 and 3):

Image


And here is the crank and the left cam (cyl 2 and 4):

Image
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Re: Sequential support for 36-2-2-2

Postby swiffy » Sun Jul 04, 2010 8:47 pm

muythaibxr wrote:MS3 already supports the addition of a cam wheel on this pattern for seq use.

Ken


yes but the ms2 (with slight modification) supports the cam input too. i have a customer with a 3s-gte engine who has a ms1 that he upgraded to ms2 with full sequential injection and individual ignition picking the triggers from the factory 24 teeth distributor (not even a 36 teeth trigger wheel).

Joe Perez wrote:So, no VVT, but we can get full sequential? That's a decent compromise.

I feel like a bit of an idiot for asking


don't, that's not a compromise as i just explained above

i just hope the vvt will be available in the closed loop soon as you said as there is a lot of power to be had in the lower rpm bands. i made 50ft-lbs more between 3000-5000rpm on a 02 jdm sti, GT35R with autronic ecu tuning just the vvt.
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Re: Sequential support for 36-2-2-2

Postby jsmcortina » Mon Jul 05, 2010 3:43 am

swiffy wrote:yes but the ms2 (with slight modification) supports the cam input too. i have a customer with a 3s-gte engine who has a ms1 that he upgraded to ms2 with full sequential injection and individual ignition picking the triggers from the factory 24 teeth distributor (not even a 36 teeth trigger wheel).

The 24 tooth pattern DOES support that yes, because it uses the generic "trigger wheel" mode. The 36-2-2-2 is a custom decoder, so only supports the cam if I specifically wrote it.

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Re: Sequential support for 36-2-2-2

Postby swiffy » Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:17 pm

jsmcortina wrote:
swiffy wrote:yes but the ms2 (with slight modification) supports the cam input too. i have a customer with a 3s-gte engine who has a ms1 that he upgraded to ms2 with full sequential injection and individual ignition picking the triggers from the factory 24 teeth distributor (not even a 36 teeth trigger wheel).

The 24 tooth pattern DOES support that yes, because it uses the generic "trigger wheel" mode. The 36-2-2-2 is a custom decoder, so only supports the cam if I specifically wrote it.

James


ok so no cam input, therefore, the ms3 that i just bought is in no way better than the ms2 besides an unnecessarily faster processor?

this sounds like if we want sequential injection we're going to have to spend more money and buy some other board that supports that.
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Re: Sequential support for 36-2-2-2

Postby Joe Perez » Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:32 pm

swiffy wrote:ok so no cam input, therefore, the ms3 that i just bought is in no way better than the ms2 besides an unnecessarily faster processor?

Yeah, that's real helpful. Knock the product while it's still in development. In fact, didn't Ken already say (in post #3 of this thread) that a single cam input and sequential was supported already?

James, Ken, please recognize that swiffy does not speak for all of us. :mrgreen:
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Re: Sequential support for 36-2-2-2

Postby jsmcortina » Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:48 am

swiffy wrote:ok so no cam input,

Who said that?

MS3 DOES support the cam input on 36-2-2-2.

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Re: Sequential support for 36-2-2-2

Postby dontz125 » Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:41 am

jsmcortina wrote:
swiffy wrote:ok so no cam input,

Who said that?

MS3 DOES support the cam input on 36-2-2-2.

James


James, you said above -
The 36-2-2-2 is a custom decoder, so only supports the cam if I specifically wrote it.
In a discussion about cam support, a statement like that (that isn't followed by a confirmation that the cam IS supported!) could be taken as a declaration that you did not in fact so specifically write it. (Especially if one missed Ken's statement at the very beginning of the thread that MS3 does in fact support the cam on this pattern.)

That's certainly how I read it...
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Re: Sequential support for 36-2-2-2

Postby jsmcortina » Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:58 am

My post was a reply to someone saying that seq/cop worked with a generic wheel. I was more stating that for custom decoders the cam support must be specifically written. In this case it has been added.

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Re: Sequential support for 36-2-2-2

Postby swiffy » Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:00 pm

Joe Perez wrote:
swiffy wrote:ok so no cam input, therefore, the ms3 that i just bought is in no way better than the ms2 besides an unnecessarily faster processor?

Yeah, that's real helpful. Knock the product while it's still in development. In fact, didn't Ken already say (in post #3 of this thread) that a single cam input and sequential was supported already?

James, Ken, please recognize that swiffy does not speak for all of us. :mrgreen:


Don't get me wrong ppl, i'm not trying to knock the product but more trying to clarify what it can and cannot do as is. i already have a ms2 wired into my suzuki swift gti turbo circuit car and in a peugeot 306 gti and now would like to be able to get my subaru into the ten's with the unit (currently running 11.6 full street trim and pump gas). i like the megasquirt and think that all the features and functions should be available from the product is released, that way 'we' can help develop it faster.
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Re: Sequential support for 36-2-2-2

Postby muythaibxr » Thu Jul 08, 2010 8:38 am

There will be people who don't even want the ms3x. We can run engines better than we could on ms2 with just the ms3 board. It is by itself a viable product. The ms3x adds extra functionality.

If we waited for the ms3x to be ready before releasing the ms3 board, we'd be a year behind on releasing anything.

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Re: Sequential support for 36-2-2-2

Postby braineack » Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:22 am

muythaibxr wrote:There will be people who don't even want the ms3x. We can run engines better than we could on ms2 with just the ms3 board. It is by itself a viable product. The ms3x adds extra functionality.

If we waited for the ms3x to be ready before releasing the ms3 board, we'd be a year behind on releasing anything.

Ken



I agree with this. I'm very happy with MS3 running batch inj and wasted spark. It's smoother, stabler and more efficient than ever. Once the MS3X is released, it will be little effort to run the 4 wires total out to my engine bay and convert it to full seq. It's really less of a need and more of a want. IIRC, all the features of the MS3X are ready, you just don't have a fancy adapterboard and ribbon that you can plug in with all the circuits available to you prebuilt.
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Re: Sequential support for 36-2-2-2

Postby jasaircraft » Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:21 am

this is the thread I was looking for, any news on the subject? What if I just run the AVCS solenoids in an open loop manner?
either on/off or pwm with an rpm axis?
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