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pitcelica's install : v3.57+MS3+MS3X

PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:36 pm
by pit_celica
Hello everyone!

Here's my project :

The car :

1991 Toyota Celica GT-S with a 4th gen 3SGTE engine swap from a 1997-2002 Caldina GT-T

The engine :

4 cylinders, 2.0L, turbo, COP with built-in igniters, high-impedance 540cc/min injectors, 36-2 crank trigger wheel, a trigger arm on the intake camshaft, crank and cam sensors are both VR sensors, OEM (Toyota) CLT, MAP and IAT sensors, AEM UEGO gauge and wideband, 3-wire OEM PWM idle valve.

The brain :

v3.57 main board + MS3 + MS3X.

The history :

Previously, this engine was running nicely with a MS2 v3.0 using a EDIS ignition system (36-1 crank trigger wheel, Ford VR sensor, EDIS coilpack, EDIS module, custom spark plug wires). Last winter, I decided to convert it to stock wiring, stock ECU, stock sensors, stock everything (when I did the swap initially, I bought the engine without any ECU and a cut wiring harness, so I went MS2 at the first time. I sourced all the OEM missing parts right after the swap). This summer, the engine ran nicely on the stock ECU, but, I felt like I needed some more way to fine tune the engine for more power. While I was doing the conversion to the stock ECU, I tried to go full sequential and I added a bunch of board modifications and add-on boards to the MS2 and it resulted in a fried MS2 chip. I discovered that my DIY electronics skills are limited. I learned that I should let the pros do their job and pay for it. So, I bought a brand new complete MS3 unit from DIYautotune last week. In the mean time, I did an adapter harness to be able to switch from the stock ECU to the MS3 unit by only disconnecting 4 ECU plugs. I used a 31/24/22/28 receptacle, a female solder cup DB37 connector and a male solder cup DB37 connector.

The goal to achieve with the MS3+MS3X :

-full sequential fuel injection
-full sequential ignition timing (COP)
-fan control
-tacho output
-launch control/flatshift
-warning light (for shift light, overheat detection, overboost detection, or anything else that should be useful)
-closed-loop EGO control
-closed-loop idle control
-closed-loop boost control
-barometric compensation (using the on-board 3bar MAP sensor for it, I'll use the stock MAP sensor for the main load calculation)

I've attached an Excel file that shows my pinout choice for all the needed outputs and input on the MS3X.

Here's where I am :

I received the MS3 unit today. First thing I did was burning in the latest v0.26 firmware, burning in my .msq file (I created my .msq file offline by starting with the default.msq file). Everything went nicely using a Megastim and a known to be working USB-serial adaptor.

I removed the stock ECU and I plugged in my adapter harness. Just before plugging in my MS3, I've measured the electrical potential between the chassis ground and all the pins of both DB37 connectors while the ignition key is at ON. I was expecting to have only 12V on pin 28 on the MS3 connector, but I discovered that all the following pins have about 12V (between 10V-12V) of electrical potential between the chassis ground and the said pins :

MS3 connector :

pins # : 19-20-21-22-23-26-28-37

MS3X connector :

pins # : 10-13-16-19-24

Before plugging the MS3 unit, I would like to know if these voltages are OK. My main concern is pin #19, it is supposed to be my sensors grounds. All the grounds from my sensors are coming to that pin, so, why it have an electrical potential between sensors ground and chassis ground!! I seriously do not want to fry my MS3. I'm pretty sure that my main wiring harness is OK because this is the same harness that the stock ECU is using since April 2010. For the adapter harness, I've tested it for continuity and shorts and it's OK. I've even did the same voltage testing without the adapter harness and I've found the same values, so the adapter harness should be OK.

If my stock ECU was using this harness since 5 months, why MS3 couldn't handle it!

I'll update this thread as soon as I have some more questions or updates to share with all of you!



Re: pitcelica's install : v3.57+MS3+MS3X

PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 4:11 am
by jsmcortina
So those voltages were measured without the MS3 box connected? In which case they might float up with the sensors, injectors etc. that are connected.
All of the grounds are connected together on the V3 board.


Re: pitcelica's install : v3.57+MS3+MS3X

PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 6:07 am
by Dyn-Evo
I've been playing with MS's and Toyota ECU's for a while and there is some weird ground stuff going on in their ECU's....!

They have separate injector grounds and sensor grounds: these are connected together inside the OEM ECU via a diode.

This allows the sensors to be earthed via the injectors ground connection, in the event that the sensor ground (E1, iirc?) fails for some reason.

This may cause some confusion when measuring voltages etc when no ECU is connected to the loom.....?

There is also some additional loading on the sensor side when measuring sensor resistances when connected to the loom with no power.
I did not look into this too much, as it caused no problems, but it IS there......waiting...! :D

Re: pitcelica's install : v3.57+MS3+MS3X

PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 6:28 am
by pit_celica
Thanks everyone for your input.

A good night of sleeping is always good! I thought about it and I came up with a nice answer. For example, let's take all the actuators (injectors, fuel pump, PWM coils). When 12V is applied on the positive pins of all theses actuators and when the negative pins isn't connected to anything (like all thoses pins on the DB37s), there is still a 12V potential between chassis ground and the said pins. This is a very simple electrical concept. This is because all those actuators are solenoids, and a solenoid is only a very long wire, but it's still a one-piece wire. The same concept apply for the sensors that are something like a variable resistor.

Anyway, now that this mystery (for me) is elucidated, I will plug in the MS3 and I'll try to start the engine today. I'll come back with some update.

Another question while I'm at it :

I'm using both VR sensors, crank on pin 24 (main DB37), cam on pin 32 (MS3X DB37). So, on the MS3X, I removed the jumper JP7. Is it OK?

Another thing, I tried to adjust the VR pots full anti-clockwise, but there is no stop on the pot, I can turn them anti-clockwise at the infinite. Is it OK?


Re: pitcelica's install : v3.57+MS3+MS3X

PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 7:11 am
by jsmcortina
Even though the docs aren't complete yet, please follow the "Quickstart" guide i.e. get a good rpm signal before connecting coils or injectors.


Re: pitcelica's install : v3.57+MS3+MS3X

PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 7:48 am
by pit_celica
Yes thanks for the tip, I won't connect the MS3X DB37 connector until I have a good crank signal.

I'm still looking for some info about those VR pots :RTFM:


Re: pitcelica's install : v3.57+MS3+MS3X

PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 7:56 am
by jsmcortina
pit_celica wrote:Another thing, I tried to adjust the VR pots full anti-clockwise, but there is no stop on the pot, I can turn them anti-clockwise at the infinite. Is it OK?

Yes, that's fine.


Re: pitcelica's install : v3.57+MS3+MS3X

PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:49 am
by pit_celica
OK, so here is my progress for this morning :

I was able to calibrate TPS, CLT, IAT and AFR wideband.

Then, I checked the tach jumpers on the main board (v3.57) and they were set for OptoIn/OptoOut. I set them to VRIN (JP1 = 1-2) and VROUT (J1 = 3-4).

After, I connected only the main DB37 connector and I cranked the engine while looking at the tooth logger in TS. The bad news is that I forgot to use "Capture to log file", so I cannot attach the log file on this post.

But, I was able to see a nice repetable pattern of 32 small bars and 2 long bars with this trigger wheel (Engine is at TDC on cyl#1 on this picture, crank sensor is at 6 o'clock) :


I wasn't able to get a nice stable cranking RPM reading, only some RPM peaks to 300-400 for a fraction of a second. By looking at the shape of the trigger wheel, I was expecting a tooth log with 34 small bars and 2 long bars. I would like to heard your though about it.

I've attached my .msq file. Note that I've set it to Wasted COP only because I'm not using the cam signal for now, I only want to get a good crank signal before plugging in the cam sensor.

Let discuss!


Re: pitcelica's install : v3.57+MS3+MS3X

PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:01 am
by jsmcortina
Change your input capture polarity.


Re: pitcelica's install : v3.57+MS3+MS3X

PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:45 am
by pit_celica
I tried with Rising Edge instead of Falling Edge and this yield to no RPM at all, no tooth I could see on the log. But, I switch it back to Falling Edge and I was able to get some tooth logs. Are they OK?

Thanks for your help!


Re: pitcelica's install : v3.57+MS3+MS3X

PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 6:23 pm
by pit_celica
Hello everyone, I made some great progress tonight.

I switched the edge capture as you suggested earlier and I played with the pots. I have now a nice solid 290-300 RPM showing in TS when cranking the engine.

Then, I connected the MS3X DB37 (for testing the cam sensor) and I played with the MS3X pots until I get a nice composite log like this one :


After that, just for kicks, I enabled the fuel pump and I tried to get the engine started. I wasn't able to, but there was some combustions and some back fires. I need to verify the timing while cranking and I need to set the Tooth #1 Angle before doing anything else. I'll verify my wiring too, I want to be sure that I have A-1, B-3, C-4 and D-2 for COP and injectors.

I'll maybe do some more tests Sunday.

I'll keep you up to date!


Re: pitcelica's install : v3.57+MS3+MS3X

PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 2:21 pm
by pit_celica
Another nice update! The engine started today! I added 360° to the Tooth #1 Angle and it fired right away. Then, I verified the timing and it was dead on!

For the bad news, I get sync loss reason 2 when RPM is over 1500 RPM. I'm pretty sure I need to play with the pots, but I don't know which one. I saw a thread for loss sync reason 2, I'll try to find it again.

Feel free to post any comments!


Re: pitcelica's install : v3.57+MS3+MS3X

PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 8:34 am
by fortmyerspolice
Awesome!! I'll be doing the same thing real soon with my mr2, same motor.

Re: pitcelica's install : v3.57+MS3+MS3X

PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:21 pm
by pit_celica
Another update.

I get rid of those lost sync reason #2 by adding some more CW turns on the hysteresis potentiometer (R52 IIRC). Then, I let the engine warm-up fully and I enabled VEAL. WOW! My idle AFR are now spot on within 1 minute of idling! I need to play a little bit with MAP samplig, injection timing, idle advance and idle VE table to get the perfect idle I'm looking for :RTFM: .

What's next :

-try to get the tachometer working using tacho output (need to verify my wiring first)
-try to get the radiator fan working using fan control (need to verify my wiring first)
-try to get the PWM valve working in open loop for wam-up (need to use Output test first)

Then, tuning, tuning, tuning, the funniest part!!!

Re: pitcelica's install : v3.57+MS3+MS3X

PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:52 pm
by pit_celica
Update :

I've tuned the idle a little bit tomorrow. I was able to get a steady 14.7 AFR using closed-loop EGO control. I've enabled PWM warm-up (open loop) and it's working nicely but I need to tune a little more the Idle PWM duty table because it's not running at a high enough RPM while warming up between 100 and 160°F. Once it's warmed up, it's idling at 900 RPM +/- 50 RPM. I tried idle advance table while turning on the fan and the blower and lights, but it wasn't fast enough to catch these sudden electrical power draws. Maybe it need some more fiddling.

After, I've turned on tacho output using the 'Tacho' pin of the MS3X. It's working fine.
For the fan control, I discovered that my fan relay need a +12V trigger from the ECU. I wanted to use Nitrous 1 or Nitrous 2 for fan control, but IIRC, these goes to ground when they are triggered. So, maybe I'll try to use JS0 or JS2 instead for this.

Tonight, I did a good 20 mins run while datalogging and using VEAL. VEAL did a nice job for leaning my VE map.

The only problem I have is that I'm using the standard AE with 100% TP based and I'm getting a lot of unwanted Accel trigger. These are happening even when both MAPdot and TPSdot are at 0. My TPS treshold was a little low (15%/s). I've upped it to 35%/s and I'll see the effect tomorrow. I will try to get a datalog when it is happening. Or maybe I should try the EAE code now.


Re: pitcelica's install : v3.57+MS3+MS3X

PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 8:26 am
by preston
Yeah its strange I had my TP AE threshold as low as 7 on my old MSII install but after I went to MS3 I had to raise it up to 50. Doesn't seem to affect driveability much but I liked that it was so low before. I doubt its related but that's all I changed. Maybe the filter lag changed as I did switch to the canned MSiii msq file.

Anyway, if you find you need to raise it further I wouldn't be too afraid of that. those spurious AE events really mess with driveability and tuning, more than you'd think just looking at the little PW spikes in the datalog.

Re: pitcelica's install : v3.57+MS3+MS3X

PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 5:08 pm
by pit_celica

It was back to school last week, so I wasn't home a lot. But, I was able to play with the tune a little more.

-After 4-5 good complete warmups using PWM idle open-loop, I switched to closed-loop. It's holding a nice and stable RPM, but it may need some more sensitivity. I need to read the CL idle manual again :RTFM: .
-I've enabled the launch control and it worked right away. It kept the engine at 4500 RPM while I was at WOT with the clutch depressed. The results was some huge backfires, increased in EGT and boost! I really want to test it at the drag before the season ends. This should lower my 60ft nicely.
-I'm now using the stock Toyota MAP sensor that is located on the intake manifold. I used the generic sensors to find the linear function of this specific MAP sensor, comparing the values with the known to be good onboard MAP sensor values.

The only bad thing is theses unwanted TPS accel event that are happening while idling. As 'preston' said, I will try to raise the TPS threshold a little more. Curiously, in MLV, when those accel events happen, TPSdot is always 0... I may try EAE instead of pulling my hairs about this.

Next steps :

-Verify how the PWM CL idle control react on a true cold start and a complete warm-up.
-Tune the high load, high RPM part of the fuel map.
-Play with launch control (the funny part :) )
-Try open-loop boost control.

So far everything is going as I wanted!


Re: pitcelica's install : v3.57+MS3+MS3X

PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:46 am
by preston
I've had the same experience, tpsDot is either zero or some innocuous value. It must be too quick for the datalog, I hve never gotten around to trying burst logging but I suspect the only way you will see those tpsDOT spikes is in burst mode and maybe not even then.

Glad your install is going well.

Re: pitcelica's install : v3.57+MS3+MS3X

PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 8:19 am
by muythaibxr
Unless you're using SD logging, it is unlikely that you'll see all the datalog data for tpsDOT. Most likely it's spiking enough to trigger TPS accel but that is getting missed in the log since logging to the laptop is too slow.

The old requirements for the tpsDOT threshold on ms2 were with ms2/extra 2.0 and earlier. We found that the calculation was off by a factor of 10, so we fixed that. What's there now is correct.


Re: pitcelica's install : v3.57+MS3+MS3X

PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 8:33 am
by preston
>We found that the calculation was off by a factor of 10

Well that would explain that ! I love it when I find that I wasn't imagining things.