2JZGE ignition questions (COP Type engine) VVT

[msnewb]

I'm helping a buddy work on his 1984 Celica Supra that has a IS300 engine swap in it and a MS3X

Got a few questions:

How do you setup the ignition settings to run this engine? What crank wheel setting and cam setting? The only thing I know for sure is that the camshaft has 3 teeth on it for the cam VR sensor to read. They are 120 degrees apart from each other. I imagine this to be since the engine only has three COPs in a wasted spark configuration.

The engine does have an ignitor. Which we will be using since the coil packs are not logically controlled (Just two pin connectors).


Here's a pic of the factory wiring for the ignitor:




I believe I got this wired up correctly now after some figuring. The no.1 ignition coil is actually sitting on the number 2 plug with a wire running of the other end of the coil to the number 5 plug, the no. 2 ignition coil is sitting on the number 4 plug with a wire running of the other end of the coil to the number 3 plug, The no.3 ignition coil is actually sitting on the number 6 plug with a wire running of the other end of the coil to the number 1 plug. That's the factory arrangement anyways.

So I have the Spark A wire to the no. 3 Coil, Spark B wire to the no. 1 Coil, Spark C wire to the no. 2 Coil

I did this since the firing order is 1-5-3-6-2-4


I couldn't find any pics of the crank sprocket online accept these which are not too helpful:







Also had a question about the GS300 IAC he wants to use since the IS3oo has one of those half throttle cable, half drive-by-wire toyota setups. The GS300 throttle body and Y-pipe is being used. Here's a diagram of the IAC in the GS300, I don't think the MS can operate it though:




Thanks for any help. this engine is a bit of a pain so trying to avoid removing the timing covers if at all possible.

[Vicoor]

If you are running wasted spark and batch fire or semisequential injection you can run with just the crank trigger. I believe it is a 36-2, but you will have to verify that.

If you want to run full sequential spark and/or fuel injection then you will need a cam sensor and someone else will have to fill you in about your specific cam trigger setup.

Most of the info you'll need can be foud here:http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms3/ignition.html

hope this helps

[msnewb]

I think he wants it to be fully sequential, i can't say I blame him the MS3X would be kind of a waste for batch fire use I guess. Is it not possible to have fully sequential injectors and a wasted spark COP setup? If thats true than maybe he needs some LS coils or something.

I was thinking about the camshaft. Couldn't we just grind off two of the cam teeth and just leave the one tooth so it can be the single tooth position sensor like most other engines? I guess the question after that would be which one to keep. I suppose the one that is in position to fire the 1 and 6 cylinder. The teeth are way back between the 5th and 6th cylinders and the VR sensor is mounted into the side of the head. I would think this would work..............?

Ya I read that link before posting. I think I've read almost all MS related links and what not. It seems this engine is wierd in general. Why couldn't Toyota just put six coils on it considering it's like a 2002 engine. Kind of irritating.


Anyone know about the idle control valve control for this thing. The one in the pic above?

[Vicoor]

You should be able to run sequential injection with wasted spark.

Before you grind teeth off the cam, make sure there isn't a wheel decoder for that setup, or that there isn't plans to make one.

the idle valve is a stepper motor design. I really think I've seen instruction about how to wire a toyota 6 wire stepper, But I can't find it now.

[msnewb]

OK so to update here we went with the jeep iac and thats done and installed. The toyota one has been blocked off appropriately to not let bypass air through.

The harness is built and everything is installed. Now new problem:

Bench testing the MS with power I can connect to the MS with any computer and all is good. So I put the MS in the car. Turned the power on and no computers will connect to it. So I thought maybe it's not getting 12V even though I verified it (On the connector) before plugging it into the car. The connector has 12v sitting on the pin that arrives when the ignition is on. Everything appears to be normal. So I checked the com port configuration a bunch of times took the MS out, back to bench test and it works perfect. Put it back in the car and nothing. Next I opened the connector case so I could test the voltage in, with it plugged into the car. The voltage is only 4.72V (Approx) what gives? As soon as you unplug it the power jumps right back to 12V.

The only thing I can think of is that the MS with all the harness connected has some kind of problem but with just 12V and ground on a bench test it's fine. What's the most likely cause of this? The ground paths to the engine are approx 0.1-0.2 ohms so the ground path is more than good. The 12v in powers a light bulb no problem that definetely uses more amperage than the MS could use.......

I'm trying to think of what to try next. Maybe leave everything plugged in then start unpluging sensors till the MS connects to the computer? If I made a mistake I'll find it, but I was wondering if there was a common issue with this. Not meaning that the MS is bad but that there is something commonly done incorrectly. It seems like a short of some kind. No smoke or anything like that. Just seems to not be powering up.

[msnewb]

Disreguard the above post for now. It appears the vehicles factory harness is damaged. The 12V source only works about 2 out of 5 times when you cycle the key. It's an old car so no big surprise. I hauled out my MS harness from my setup up plugged it in to his MS and got power directly off the ignition cylinder. And what do you know it worked fine everytime. This Toyota sucks big time. I'm glad I figured it out though so now I can sleep well tonight.......

Still gonna need help on the cam signal probably though. Is there a way to tell the MS to ignore two of the pulses out of the three pulses or something? That of course would only work once since you never know where the engine will stop its rotation at lol. Anybody know if there's a way to use the factory cam with three teeth???? If not I guess we will resort to grinding two teeth off. Not looking forward to removing the camshaft for that though. If it was my car then no big deal. I guess my buddy is going to be busy doing that while I take a nap. I am imagining the tooth to keep is the one at TDC no. 1 and 6 cylinder.

[msnewb]

OK got some updates here: To be more exact this is a 2001 IS300 VVT engine it has a coil on plug wasted spark setup (Later years seem to have a different crank sprocket as the TDC dot is on the missing tooth section, I'm not 100% sure but a 2005 factory service manual showed that, so to be sure check I guess)

First picture is of the crank sproket on a summit degree wheel, the wheel is a 34-2 I guess. I'm not entirely sure how to count it. Like how do you count the missing tooth section of the sprocket?




Here's a pic of the ruler lined up with the spot where I marked the sprocket with a sharpie (really hard to see but it's in the dip not lined up with an actual tooth) It is at 100 degrees BTDC. My question is: Is this the number you need to fill in the "#1 tooth position BTDC" on the ignitions settings screen? I imagine yes. The way I'm thinking of it is when the engine is at TDC this is the tooth that tells the MS to fire the first coil. The other way I was thinking it would work is be based off the degrees from the missing tooth section, since I don't see how the engine would know where it actually was in the first senario. Gonna need some direction here.




A close up of the same measurement




Here's a pic with the ruler marking 52 degrees for the trailing edge of the missing tooth section of the sprocket




Now the leading edge of the missing tooth section is at 93 degrees shown here in this picture




Now on to the pics of the camshaft. Here's the cam at TDC (Possibly, read on), you can see the three teeth in this picture (Taken from the front of the engine)




A little closer view still at TDC (Possibly, read on),




An above view to help get a better idea, they apear to be 120 degrees apart from each other




Here's a view from the back of the engine towards the front showing the cams at TDC (Possibly, read on). I know they don't point straight up but after a couple hours of deciphering toyota FSMs we have come to the conclusion this is the only way that makes any sense. This could be wrong so be careful when using this as a reference. The problem is that the cam sprockets have two marks on them, and supposedly you should line up the two marks (each) on the sprockets with the two marks each on the rear timing belt cover. Except when you do it puts the cams in a worse position. If I remember right it puts the exhaust valves in the "just finished closing" position. That doesn't seem correct if the piston was on it's way up to TDC to start the combustion then nothing would have got compressed right? We are still debating this between ourselves since the FSM we have shows 2 distictly different ways to set the cam sprockets to TDC in the same section of the book WTF? Super confusing and we don't need bent valves. Hopefully someone that knows these engines can clear this up. For reference there are "lines" or "slashes" for one mark on the sprocket and a dot for the other. Odly enough they are oriented the same on both cams and not mirror images of each other which seems to make it more confusing. Whatever happened to a single TDC mark on a gear and leave it alone? The back cover has a spot to line up both marks on each side but it just feels like something is wrong about that. Like I said maybe someone will know the exact answer.

[jsmcortina]

First picture is of the crank sproket on a summit degree wheel, the wheel is a 34-2 I guess. I'm not entirely sure how to count it. Like how do you count the missing tooth section of the sprocket?

More likely a 36-2. That is supported by the missing tooth wheel decoder and will give you wasted spark. The existing ignitor box you have can almost certainly be drive from the logic spark outputs on the MS3X.
With just the crank wheel connected you can run semi-sequential fuel.

Are there any other cam sensors? That three tooth affair would work ok for the OEM to detect VVT position, but a) isn't supported by MS3 at this time and b) doesn't give engine phase for sequential.

James

[msnewb]

First picture is of the crank sproket on a summit degree wheel, the wheel is a 34-2 I guess. I'm not entirely sure how to count it. Like how do you count the missing tooth section of the sprocket?

More likely a 36-2. That is supported by the missing tooth wheel decoder and will give you wasted spark. The existing ignitor box you have can almost certainly be drive from the logic spark outputs on the MS3X.
With just the crank wheel connected you can run semi-sequential fuel.

Are there any other cam sensors? That three tooth affair would work ok for the OEM to detect VVT position, but a) isn't supported by MS3 at this time and b) doesn't give engine phase for sequential.

James

I've tested the coils with the ignitor and MS already and it works perfect. no problems there. It's straight forward.

So that counts as a 36-2 wheel? The two outside bumps of the missing tooth section count as a tooth each bringing the total to 36? and yes two teeth would fit in the missing tooth area so -2? Just trying to be sure sorry to be a pain in the .....

I did finally find the missing toth portion of the manual I'm not sure how I missed it to be quite honest but on those examples there was literally a tooth missing from the wheel. This ones like an inverted version of that?

Like you said the cam has too many teeth. Can I?

A) cut two off? (If I cut two off, which two?

B) use the skip pulse setting , set at 2? So it doesn't count the other two?


This is a friends car and now I'm stuck working on it since he doesn't know much so any help is good. It needs to leave the premises ASAP so I can work on my own car LOL

[jsmcortina]

If you can do without the VVT control, run the engine wasted spark and semi-sequential and ignore the cam completely.

Cutting two teeth off the cam would work, but it is rather final and brutal.

James

[msnewb]

It's the only cam sensor on this year engine. I think we will go with the semi sequential fuel and we went with a Jeep IAC to get that going. Currently awaiting a couple parts that don't have to do with the MS to give starting it a shot again. I think we will be good this time. Everything works now. Leaving the possiblility of the use of the VVT maybe in the future.

Is the fan control suppose to over shoot the degree setting? I was messing around with it and set it to 89F for shut off and it seemed to like to go to 88F before it would shut off. Not a big deal but I was wondering if it was normal.

[jsmcortina]

It needs to go below the shut-off setting so yes that looks normal.

James

[msnewb]

Having trouble getting the engine fired up. Is this crank sprocket not a 36-4 instead of 36-2? The documentaion talks about the physical teeth. There are 32 normal teeth and one big tooth.

It would be a 36-2 if you filed down the big tooth in the middle to achieve two extra teeth and leaving you with 34 physical teeth with two missing. Am I completly wrong here. I have tried tons of angles, and setting to see if this engine will fire up and am getting nothing. I have heard a couple hiccups that sounded like attempts to start but no running of any kind.

The injectors and coils do indeed work in the test mode and all seems to be ok. I don't have a scope but the DVM I have does verify there is a reading (What kind exactly I do not know, but something is present that fluctuates) from the crank sensor.

This is becoming frustrating as you can imagine but the solution is probably simple and something overlooked. Please look at the below sprocket picture before assuming the wheel type.

[msnewb]

Here's a pic of the sprocket close up with some notes. What is the #1 tooth angle BTDC? Is it possible for it to be a number like 150.5, 160.1, 170.3 and so on?

[jsmcortina]

Here's a pic of the sprocket close up with some notes.

What is the #1 tooth angle BTDC? Is it possible for it to be a number like 150.5, 160.1, 170.3 and so on?

Yes, it looks to be in that range. I'd start with 150 and then fine tune with the timing light.

Take a composite log (see the tooth loggers page) of the engine during cranking and post the log here. We can see how many teeth and what it looks like.

Also, go ahead and try 36-4.

James

[msnewb]

Here's a pic of the sprocket close up with some notes.

What is the #1 tooth angle BTDC? Is it possible for it to be a number like 150.5, 160.1, 170.3 and so on?

Yes, it looks to be in that range. I'd start with 150 and then fine tune with the timing light.

Take a composite log (see the tooth loggers page) of the engine during cranking and post the log here. We can see how many teeth and what it looks like.

Also, go ahead and try 36-4.

James

Am I right in assuming the TDC mark on the crank will appear to be at TDC when the strobe is flashing on the timing light during cranking and the angle number is set correctly? I assume so I've never tried it on an engine before.

Also I'm not sure how the tooth logger works. Just click save to file then start, crank for a bit, then stop and post the file here?

[msnewb]

OK, I'm not sure what was happening earlier to prevent the engine from starting but it starts fine now. It just suddenly worked even though I know I had these setting at least twice. I have no idea what happened honestly. Here is the ignition settings for a 2001 IS300 engine (COP wasted spark and VVT)




And the fuel settings as I have them. Using injector size 250cc, fuel pressure at 40psi. I don't actually know the injector size, just kinda went by what Lexus owner forums are saying. They say somewhere between 240-260cc, so I went in the middle.




Here's the tooth log, hopefully I did it correctly.