can ms3x run a common rail diesel ?
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Re: can ms3x run a common rail diesel ?
The IDM8 (8-cylinder piezo injector driver between $2500.00 to $3250.00. We are willing to sell it "bare bones" and you setup or configure the ECU of your choice to run it, or we can provide a fully assembled and wired MS3 along with it. I'm not sure on pricing for the assembled MS3, but I'm sure we can keep the price equal to what other companies sell assembled units for. Once we have an engine up and running controlled by the MS3, we'll also be able to provide base tuning maps that should be some help even if you're not running it on a V8 engine.
Since a diesel doesn't really care about the AFR, you can't really hurt anything if it's rich or lean. As long as the injection timing doesn't get over advanced, you can't do much damage either in terms of initial startup and running the engine to get it tuned properly.
We have not done any work on multiple injection events per cycle, but it should be just require some fairly simple internal software changes to do it.
The tricky part would be if you wanted the pre- and post-injection events to have varying start points or duration. Ideally, the ECU would simply be sending varying pulse width signals to the IDM8 for multiple injection events.
If you just wanted something like (pulling numbers out of my hat) a fixed 10 mg of fuel for pre-injection .75 ms before the main injection, and 15 mg of fuel 1 ms after the end of the main injection, that could be programmed into the IDM8, and then the ECU just sends one continuous injector firing signal.
Since a diesel doesn't really care about the AFR, you can't really hurt anything if it's rich or lean. As long as the injection timing doesn't get over advanced, you can't do much damage either in terms of initial startup and running the engine to get it tuned properly.
We have not done any work on multiple injection events per cycle, but it should be just require some fairly simple internal software changes to do it.
The tricky part would be if you wanted the pre- and post-injection events to have varying start points or duration. Ideally, the ECU would simply be sending varying pulse width signals to the IDM8 for multiple injection events.
If you just wanted something like (pulling numbers out of my hat) a fixed 10 mg of fuel for pre-injection .75 ms before the main injection, and 15 mg of fuel 1 ms after the end of the main injection, that could be programmed into the IDM8, and then the ECU just sends one continuous injector firing signal.
Re: can ms3x run a common rail diesel ?
For those interested in the factory IDM used on the 1994-5-2003 7.3 Ford Power Stroke diesels, attached is a (rather crude) scope shot of the relevant control signals.
Red is CID (Cylinder Identification) when CID goes high, this signals the IDM that it is going to be firing the first 4 injectors in the firing order, in this case 1-2-7-3. When CID goes low, that tells the IDM that its now firing 4-5-6-8.
Blue is FDCS (Fuel Delivery Command Signal) When FDCS goes high, that is tells the IDM to fire injector #1 for the duration of FDCS pulse. When FCDS goes low, the IDM sits and waits for the next FDCS pulse, which it assumes is injector #2, and so on with #7 and #3. Then, after CID transitions low, the next FDCS pulse is the signal to fire injector #4, and so on with #5, #6 & #8. After CID transitions low-to-high or high-to -low, the FDCS pulse must arrive within a 70-90 us window. If it arrives earlier or later, that pulse will be ignored.
Green is the voltage at the odd numbered / passenger side injectors, 1-7-3-5
Yellow is the voltage at the even numbered / driver's side injectors 2-4-6-8
I went to a great deal of time and expense in 2006-2009 to modify the 7.3 IDM and run the truck with a Pectel SQ6 ECU. It was a great learning experience, but we didn't gain anything in terms of power or performance. We can make just as much power with a lot less headache with the Ford factory PCM and the Minotaur tuning software from Power Hungry Performance!
Red is CID (Cylinder Identification) when CID goes high, this signals the IDM that it is going to be firing the first 4 injectors in the firing order, in this case 1-2-7-3. When CID goes low, that tells the IDM that its now firing 4-5-6-8.
Blue is FDCS (Fuel Delivery Command Signal) When FDCS goes high, that is tells the IDM to fire injector #1 for the duration of FDCS pulse. When FCDS goes low, the IDM sits and waits for the next FDCS pulse, which it assumes is injector #2, and so on with #7 and #3. Then, after CID transitions low, the next FDCS pulse is the signal to fire injector #4, and so on with #5, #6 & #8. After CID transitions low-to-high or high-to -low, the FDCS pulse must arrive within a 70-90 us window. If it arrives earlier or later, that pulse will be ignored.
Green is the voltage at the odd numbered / passenger side injectors, 1-7-3-5
Yellow is the voltage at the even numbered / driver's side injectors 2-4-6-8
I went to a great deal of time and expense in 2006-2009 to modify the 7.3 IDM and run the truck with a Pectel SQ6 ECU. It was a great learning experience, but we didn't gain anything in terms of power or performance. We can make just as much power with a lot less headache with the Ford factory PCM and the Minotaur tuning software from Power Hungry Performance!
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Re: can ms3x run a common rail diesel ?
humm sounds GREAT ! thanks for the info.
2005 subaru legacy with buick grandnational engine and awd
1976 gmc k10 pickup vortec 383 tbi ms2 nv4500 3.42 final drives
1976 gmc k10 pickup vortec 383 tbi ms2 nv4500 3.42 final drives
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Re: can ms3x run a common rail diesel ?
gfolsom wrote: Here's some of what I've learned:
The Bosch OEM units (EDC15,EDC16,EDC17) units work well but are not really tuneable, as described earlier; however...
I work for an APR distributor. We've been flashing performance tunes on EDC17 VW/Audi diesels since earlier this year (http://www.goapr.com/products/ecu_upgra ... 140hp.html). APR obviously has figured out tuning them. Of course they've been tuning the VW/Audi gasoline direct injection Bosch (and Siemens) ECU's for a very long time now. Perhaps the intent of the statement was that they aren't user tunable, but they are tunable.
The only possible help I can offer to this thread is that as part of the flashing process I have Bosch MED17 ECU's open on a regular basis. I can easily snap some pictures of components so you guys can see what sort of hardware they are using for injector drivers and such.
Cody Forbes
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Re: can ms3x run a common rail diesel ?
^ that would be great !
2005 subaru legacy with buick grandnational engine and awd
1976 gmc k10 pickup vortec 383 tbi ms2 nv4500 3.42 final drives
1976 gmc k10 pickup vortec 383 tbi ms2 nv4500 3.42 final drives
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Re: can ms3x run a common rail diesel ?
More of a case of aftermarket hardware not being an advantage in this isolated case...slyrye wrote:forum dead?
Although I'd still like to run a MK4 TDi motor with MS, if only to make swaps easier.
Always doing things the hard way, MS2 sequential w/ v1.01 mainboard, LS2 coils. 80 mile/day commuter status.
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Re: can ms3x run a common rail diesel ?
So did anything become of this? Ive been fitting and tuning piggy back modules to diesels for a couple years now and earlier this year have been re-flashing the stock ECU so also have ecu's open regularly. So can take pics etc...
Me and my business partner would love to be able to use a MS on these cars... we have no serious technical electrical or software knowlage ourselves but we do have our own dyno and if someone was serious we would buy a test mule car and willing to fund/try any prototypes.
Idealy our Goal would be a range of DIYPNP ecu's
Me and my business partner would love to be able to use a MS on these cars... we have no serious technical electrical or software knowlage ourselves but we do have our own dyno and if someone was serious we would buy a test mule car and willing to fund/try any prototypes.
Idealy our Goal would be a range of DIYPNP ecu's
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Re: can ms3x run a common rail diesel ?
I'm playing with a GDi setup on my workbench, currently a MS2-Extra sequential setup firing Bosch GDi injectors via an early Mazdaspeed 6 GDi driver box.
The MS is quite oblivious to what it is driving, and the GDi driver box is a dumb PW in=PW out, except with a ~100v kick at the leading edge that drives the Bosch GDi injectors. I cannot imagine the stand alone Di drivers are much different.
For me, the only showstopper so far is looking like the HPFP.
I'm trying to sort out if I can drive an off the shelf GDi pump with a large PWM speed controlled 12v motor as the regulation method , it looks like it would work, at least in the amusement park of my mind.
I don't know how much motor I would need, though.
The MS is quite oblivious to what it is driving, and the GDi driver box is a dumb PW in=PW out, except with a ~100v kick at the leading edge that drives the Bosch GDi injectors. I cannot imagine the stand alone Di drivers are much different.
For me, the only showstopper so far is looking like the HPFP.
I'm trying to sort out if I can drive an off the shelf GDi pump with a large PWM speed controlled 12v motor as the regulation method , it looks like it would work, at least in the amusement park of my mind.
I don't know how much motor I would need, though.
Always doing things the hard way, MS2 sequential w/ v1.01 mainboard, LS2 coils. 80 mile/day commuter status.
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Re: can ms3x run a common rail diesel ?
Dont know if this is of any help but this is a Nissan Patrol 3.0L Commonrail diesel ecu im reflashing today, uses a Bosch ecu.
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Re: can ms3x run a common rail diesel ?
maybe it,s an idea to use the yamaha hpdi pump
it should have a pressure up to 700 psi
could be that the latest were up to 1000 psi
the pressure sensor is on the fuel rail
and i believe the regulator is integrated in the pump
it should have a pressure up to 700 psi
could be that the latest were up to 1000 psi
the pressure sensor is on the fuel rail
and i believe the regulator is integrated in the pump
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Re: can ms3x run a common rail diesel ?
The nissan patrol I flashed this morning had 350bar / 5000psi at idle....
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Re: can ms3x run a common rail diesel ?
CR diesels are ~an order of magnitude higher pressure than GDi... so far.
OTOH there is really no fundamental reason gdi has to run at lower pressure AFAIK.
It's probably a cost//materials issue, gasoline is a lousy lubricant compared to good diesel fuel.
You can still charge a serious $$ upgrade for a diesel, for a GDi motor, not so much.
Having said that, I suspect GDi will eventually largely replace diesels for lower end stuff, esp as they get stratified charge working well.
(I suspect this will be due to emissions, mostly)
I'm now researching making an eddy current clutch for the variable speed GDi pump half baked idea, as it looks like it would need ~2-3HP at max flow/pressure. I suspect they just up the pw as needed as the pressure drops to ~400 psi at high rpm/max load on some existing GDi setups, so 2-3HP is probably far more that necessary.
I would say I'm off topic, but high pressure GDi is essenttially the same layout as CR diesel, just at a much lower pressure.
OTOH there is really no fundamental reason gdi has to run at lower pressure AFAIK.
It's probably a cost//materials issue, gasoline is a lousy lubricant compared to good diesel fuel.
You can still charge a serious $$ upgrade for a diesel, for a GDi motor, not so much.
Having said that, I suspect GDi will eventually largely replace diesels for lower end stuff, esp as they get stratified charge working well.
(I suspect this will be due to emissions, mostly)
I'm now researching making an eddy current clutch for the variable speed GDi pump half baked idea, as it looks like it would need ~2-3HP at max flow/pressure. I suspect they just up the pw as needed as the pressure drops to ~400 psi at high rpm/max load on some existing GDi setups, so 2-3HP is probably far more that necessary.
I would say I'm off topic, but high pressure GDi is essenttially the same layout as CR diesel, just at a much lower pressure.
Always doing things the hard way, MS2 sequential w/ v1.01 mainboard, LS2 coils. 80 mile/day commuter status.
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Re: can ms3x run a common rail diesel ?
cant use a hydraulic piston pump for high pressure ? but i guess the lubrication issue is the show stopper for gas.. but i'm sure diesel can be pumped to 5000 psi using a hydraulic pump
2005 subaru legacy with buick grandnational engine and awd
1976 gmc k10 pickup vortec 383 tbi ms2 nv4500 3.42 final drives
1976 gmc k10 pickup vortec 383 tbi ms2 nv4500 3.42 final drives
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Re: can ms3x run a common rail diesel ?
with Generic closed-loop PWM control on HPFP i think it is possible to megasquirt CR...! in conjunction with this...!
http://kms.vankronenburg.nl/products/ac ... on-driver/
http://kms.vankronenburg.nl/products/ac ... on-driver/
MSnS'n'4G15
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Re: can ms3x run a common rail diesel ?
Check this out...!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUGyLPVTTA0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUGyLPVTTA0
MSnS'n'4G15
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Re: can ms3x run a common rail diesel ?
4$ EACH ? lol
i want !
edit 8$ on digikey for qty 1
data sheet.
http://cache.freescale.com/files/analog ... C33816.pdf
so looks like it has the voltage booster and everything built in ? so this would go directly to the injector ?
and it would get connected to megasquirt ?
i want !
edit 8$ on digikey for qty 1
data sheet.
http://cache.freescale.com/files/analog ... C33816.pdf
so looks like it has the voltage booster and everything built in ? so this would go directly to the injector ?
and it would get connected to megasquirt ?
2005 subaru legacy with buick grandnational engine and awd
1976 gmc k10 pickup vortec 383 tbi ms2 nv4500 3.42 final drives
1976 gmc k10 pickup vortec 383 tbi ms2 nv4500 3.42 final drives
Re: can ms3x run a common rail diesel ?
From a quick search around here, I gather that MS3X running a Duramax Diesel engine hasn't moved forward at all? I'm mildly interested in goofing with a duramax and a 4L80e in a non-factory application some day, but without the ability to use "My Precious" (MS3), my interest is substantially squelched.
--'98 Dodge Neon ACR Turbo - MS3 beta test car - Sold
--'97 BMW 540i/6spd - Single Front/Top Mount Turbo 550+ HP - MS3+MS3X V3.0 - Sold but ripping in Vegas
--'97 BMW 328i 5.3 L33/TH400 Swapped drift car - MS3+MS3X V3.0 Full Sequential - Turbos And Radiator In the Trunk 9.6@144 on a 1.55 60ft
--'97 BMW 540i/6spd - Single Front/Top Mount Turbo 550+ HP - MS3+MS3X V3.0 - Sold but ripping in Vegas
--'97 BMW 328i 5.3 L33/TH400 Swapped drift car - MS3+MS3X V3.0 Full Sequential - Turbos And Radiator In the Trunk 9.6@144 on a 1.55 60ft
Re: can ms3x run a common rail diesel ?
There is an FICM ford driver board that is pretty accessible for around $50 on eBay. Going to try and build a setup with my ms3x and timed injection out of 720*.
A bench test will prove the theory. I need to get some injectors from the junk yard. These idi to common rail conversions look awesome and I have just the Mercedes to do it on. I’ll start a new thread if the idea works out on the bench.
A bench test will prove the theory. I need to get some injectors from the junk yard. These idi to common rail conversions look awesome and I have just the Mercedes to do it on. I’ll start a new thread if the idea works out on the bench.