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Maximum Value for PW and injectortiming?

Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:42 pm
by Activate
I have a problem with the Pw I think.

I have a 410 engine with a KB supercharger with propane injectors with P+H boards.

The idle PW is about 4.7 but when I am going to accelerate it is going up to 28 Sec it is not even at WOT then.

The engine is running really rough then, so I don't want to try it at wot.

The engine had a rough idle before I have tried to use the Idle advance( I hope I have done right? )and to lower the injector small pulsewidths, I dont have the good value for it.

The value for the injectors I get fro Bigas are :minimum impulse 2,8ms , Speedup 4ms,opening time 2ms ,close time 1ms, coil 3 ohms,

How I must use this data?
test.msq
test.zip
Thanks and greetings,


Erik.

My MSQ and log file are here :

Re: Maximum Value for PW and injectortiming?

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:36 am
by Activate
up?

Re: Maximum Value for PW and injectortiming?

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:55 am
by billr
I have very little experience with propane (fork-lift trucks only), but would need to have some idea of what the injector flow-rate is to even discuss your problem. Without knowing the flow, in something like Kg/hr or liter/hr, PW is indeterminate. A "410 engine", is that a 410 cubic-inch engine, probably a V-8?

Re: Maximum Value for PW and injectortiming?

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:03 am
by Activate
Hello Bil,

It is a 410 Cui and it is a V8

Thanks and greetings,

Erik

Re: Maximum Value for PW and injectortiming?

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:11 am
by billr
Can you find flow-rate for the injectors?

Re: Maximum Value for PW and injectortiming?

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:17 am
by Activate
I have tried it but al I get are these value's : :minimum impulse 2,8ms , Speedup 4ms,opening time 2ms ,close time 1ms, coil 3 ohms

Thanks and greetings,


Erik.

Re: Maximum Value for PW and injectortiming?

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:50 am
by billr
Post make and P/N of injectors, maybe someone else knows. (Make is "Bigas"?) If we can't find data, then I think you will have to flow them and measure. Determining "req_fuel" is just a big guess if we don't know injector flow.

Re: Maximum Value for PW and injectortiming?

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:59 am
by jsmcortina
I've not heard of "speedup" in this context before?

The dead time in your MSQ looks wrong though, where did your 2.4ms come from?

From the specs there, opening time = 2ms, closing time = 1ms. So with the same driver your dead time = opening time - closing time = 1.0ms.

James

Re: Maximum Value for PW and injectortiming?

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:08 pm
by Activate
Hello James,

Thanks for the reply

The 2.4 is just a value I have put in the MS.(that was the value that I get some idle)

I must use 1Sec. for the deadtime at A?

What curve must i use?

Must I change other value's?

Image

Thanks and greetings,


Erik.

Re: Maximum Value for PW and injectortiming?

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:16 pm
by jsmcortina
Yes, from the data you've presented I believe that 1.0ms is the dead time (if anyone thinks differently, please post.)

Dead time curve 1 looks feasible.

Curves 2,3,4 are bogus - where did they come from?

James

Re: Maximum Value for PW and injectortiming?

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:24 pm
by Activate
Thanks James for the quick reply

I really don't know how the other curves came there.


Must I put the 1 sec only by A or also B and further?

Thanks and greetings,


Erik.

Re: Maximum Value for PW and injectortiming?

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:41 pm
by jsmcortina
You have the _option_ to put individual dead times in the case where you have measured each injector. For 99% of users though the single number for all injectors ("same" setting) is sufficient.

James

Re: Maximum Value for PW and injectortiming?

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:47 pm
by Activate
Thanks.

I will put them al on 1 sec and see if it runs better!/

I hope that my PW gets better now.

Thanks and greetings,


Erik.

Re: Maximum Value for PW and injectortiming?

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:58 pm
by jsmcortina
Activate wrote:I hope that my PW gets better now.
Your PW will be about 1.4ms less. But the dead time _I_believe_ should be more accurate.

You will need to add more fuel to the idle areas of your VE table.

James

Re: Maximum Value for PW and injectortiming?

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:04 pm
by Activate
Thanks for the answer!

I will try that.

Wich value I must put in the mainboard injectors?

What is the max PW that is safe?

Thanks and greetings,


Erik

Re: Maximum Value for PW and injectortiming?

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:06 pm
by jsmcortina
What injectors do you have connected to the mainboard injector outputs?

Not sure what you mean by "safe" ?
Ensure the dutycycle does not exceed about 85%

James

Re: Maximum Value for PW and injectortiming?

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:13 pm
by Activate
I have no injectors connected to the mainbord.

I will look at he dutycycle.

Thanks and greetings,


Erik.

Re: Maximum Value for PW and injectortiming?

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:11 pm
by billr
Activate,

You keep saying 1 sec; do you understand that should be 1 milli-second?

Edit: I had never heard of "Bigas", so I looked on-line for background info. I came across your MS thread from early 2011, with many of the same issues being discussed; including the need to flow the injectors since Bigas won't help you. Do it.

Re: Maximum Value for PW and injectortiming?

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:52 pm
by Activate
Hello Bil,

Yes I am saying 1 Sec, of course it is 1 Msec.....

What will be the best way to test the Injectors?

Thanks and greetings,


Erik.

Re: Maximum Value for PW and injectortiming?

Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:30 am
by jsmcortina
(Being pedantic, it is one millisecond, not a megasecond.)

I don't know how you do test gaseous injectors with a gas. Seems you would need far more specialised equipment than when using a liquid.

You _might_ have success with injector test fluid : http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms3/injdeadtime.html

James