Maximum Value for PW and injectortiming?

General support questions and announcements for MS3. See also www.ms3efi.com for MS3 information

Moderators: jsmcortina, muythaibxr

Maximum Value for PW and injectortiming?

Postby Activate » Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:42 pm

I have a problem with the Pw I think.

I have a 410 engine with a KB supercharger with propane injectors with P+H boards.

The idle PW is about 4.7 but when I am going to accelerate it is going up to 28 Sec it is not even at WOT then.

The engine is running really rough then, so I don't want to try it at wot.

The engine had a rough idle before I have tried to use the Idle advance( I hope I have done right? )and to lower the injector small pulsewidths, I dont have the good value for it.

The value for the injectors I get fro Bigas are :minimum impulse 2,8ms , Speedup 4ms,opening time 2ms ,close time 1ms, coil 3 ohms,

How I must use this data?
test.msq

test.zip


Thanks and greetings,


Erik.

My MSQ and log file are here :
User avatar
Activate
Experienced MS/Extra'er
 
Posts: 197
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:37 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Maximum Value for PW and injectortiming?

Postby Activate » Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:36 am

up?
User avatar
Activate
Experienced MS/Extra'er
 
Posts: 197
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:37 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Maximum Value for PW and injectortiming?

Postby billr » Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:55 am

I have very little experience with propane (fork-lift trucks only), but would need to have some idea of what the injector flow-rate is to even discuss your problem. Without knowing the flow, in something like Kg/hr or liter/hr, PW is indeterminate. A "410 engine", is that a 410 cubic-inch engine, probably a V-8?
billr
Super MS/Extra'er
 
Posts: 1991
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 11:41 am

Re: Maximum Value for PW and injectortiming?

Postby Activate » Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:03 am

Hello Bil,

It is a 410 Cui and it is a V8

Thanks and greetings,

Erik
User avatar
Activate
Experienced MS/Extra'er
 
Posts: 197
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:37 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Maximum Value for PW and injectortiming?

Postby billr » Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:11 am

Can you find flow-rate for the injectors?
billr
Super MS/Extra'er
 
Posts: 1991
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 11:41 am

Re: Maximum Value for PW and injectortiming?

Postby Activate » Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:17 am

I have tried it but al I get are these value's : :minimum impulse 2,8ms , Speedup 4ms,opening time 2ms ,close time 1ms, coil 3 ohms

Thanks and greetings,


Erik.
User avatar
Activate
Experienced MS/Extra'er
 
Posts: 197
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:37 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Maximum Value for PW and injectortiming?

Postby billr » Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:50 am

Post make and P/N of injectors, maybe someone else knows. (Make is "Bigas"?) If we can't find data, then I think you will have to flow them and measure. Determining "req_fuel" is just a big guess if we don't know injector flow.
billr
Super MS/Extra'er
 
Posts: 1991
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 11:41 am

Re: Maximum Value for PW and injectortiming?

Postby jsmcortina » Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:59 am

I've not heard of "speedup" in this context before?

The dead time in your MSQ looks wrong though, where did your 2.4ms come from?

From the specs there, opening time = 2ms, closing time = 1ms. So with the same driver your dead time = opening time - closing time = 1.0ms.

James
I can supply, repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK.

My Success story: viewtopic.php?f=104&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
jsmcortina
Site Admin
 
Posts: 28489
Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 1:34 am
Location: Birmingham, UK

Re: Maximum Value for PW and injectortiming?

Postby Activate » Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:08 pm

Hello James,

Thanks for the reply

The 2.4 is just a value I have put in the MS.(that was the value that I get some idle)

I must use 1Sec. for the deadtime at A?

What curve must i use?

Must I change other value's?

Image

Thanks and greetings,


Erik.
User avatar
Activate
Experienced MS/Extra'er
 
Posts: 197
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:37 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Maximum Value for PW and injectortiming?

Postby jsmcortina » Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:16 pm

Yes, from the data you've presented I believe that 1.0ms is the dead time (if anyone thinks differently, please post.)

Dead time curve 1 looks feasible.

Curves 2,3,4 are bogus - where did they come from?

James
I can supply, repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK.

My Success story: viewtopic.php?f=104&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
jsmcortina
Site Admin
 
Posts: 28489
Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 1:34 am
Location: Birmingham, UK

Re: Maximum Value for PW and injectortiming?

Postby Activate » Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:24 pm

Thanks James for the quick reply

I really don't know how the other curves came there.


Must I put the 1 sec only by A or also B and further?

Thanks and greetings,


Erik.
User avatar
Activate
Experienced MS/Extra'er
 
Posts: 197
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:37 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Maximum Value for PW and injectortiming?

Postby jsmcortina » Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:41 pm

You have the _option_ to put individual dead times in the case where you have measured each injector. For 99% of users though the single number for all injectors ("same" setting) is sufficient.

James
I can supply, repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK.

My Success story: viewtopic.php?f=104&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
jsmcortina
Site Admin
 
Posts: 28489
Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 1:34 am
Location: Birmingham, UK

Re: Maximum Value for PW and injectortiming?

Postby Activate » Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:47 pm

Thanks.

I will put them al on 1 sec and see if it runs better!/

I hope that my PW gets better now.

Thanks and greetings,


Erik.
User avatar
Activate
Experienced MS/Extra'er
 
Posts: 197
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:37 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Maximum Value for PW and injectortiming?

Postby jsmcortina » Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:58 pm

Activate wrote:I hope that my PW gets better now.

Your PW will be about 1.4ms less. But the dead time _I_believe_ should be more accurate.

You will need to add more fuel to the idle areas of your VE table.

James
I can supply, repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK.

My Success story: viewtopic.php?f=104&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
jsmcortina
Site Admin
 
Posts: 28489
Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 1:34 am
Location: Birmingham, UK

Re: Maximum Value for PW and injectortiming?

Postby Activate » Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:04 pm

Thanks for the answer!

I will try that.

Wich value I must put in the mainboard injectors?

What is the max PW that is safe?

Thanks and greetings,


Erik
User avatar
Activate
Experienced MS/Extra'er
 
Posts: 197
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:37 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Maximum Value for PW and injectortiming?

Postby jsmcortina » Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:06 pm

What injectors do you have connected to the mainboard injector outputs?

Not sure what you mean by "safe" ?
Ensure the dutycycle does not exceed about 85%

James
I can supply, repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK.

My Success story: viewtopic.php?f=104&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
jsmcortina
Site Admin
 
Posts: 28489
Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 1:34 am
Location: Birmingham, UK

Re: Maximum Value for PW and injectortiming?

Postby Activate » Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:13 pm

I have no injectors connected to the mainbord.

I will look at he dutycycle.

Thanks and greetings,


Erik.
User avatar
Activate
Experienced MS/Extra'er
 
Posts: 197
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:37 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Maximum Value for PW and injectortiming?

Postby billr » Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:11 pm

Activate,

You keep saying 1 sec; do you understand that should be 1 milli-second?

Edit: I had never heard of "Bigas", so I looked on-line for background info. I came across your MS thread from early 2011, with many of the same issues being discussed; including the need to flow the injectors since Bigas won't help you. Do it.
billr
Super MS/Extra'er
 
Posts: 1991
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 11:41 am

Re: Maximum Value for PW and injectortiming?

Postby Activate » Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:52 pm

Hello Bil,

Yes I am saying 1 Sec, of course it is 1 Msec.....

What will be the best way to test the Injectors?

Thanks and greetings,


Erik.
User avatar
Activate
Experienced MS/Extra'er
 
Posts: 197
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:37 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Maximum Value for PW and injectortiming?

Postby jsmcortina » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:30 am

(Being pedantic, it is one millisecond, not a megasecond.)

I don't know how you do test gaseous injectors with a gas. Seems you would need far more specialised equipment than when using a liquid.

You _might_ have success with injector test fluid : http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms3/injdeadtime.html

James
I can supply, repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK.

My Success story: viewtopic.php?f=104&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
jsmcortina
Site Admin
 
Posts: 28489
Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 1:34 am
Location: Birmingham, UK

Next

Return to MS3 General Support

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: DaveEFI, Exabot [Bot] and 3 guests