Sync Loss reason 17 or Reason 2

[smokeysevin]

DIYautotune built MS3 MS3x
2005 kawasaki stx 15f
1498 cc even fire 180 degree crank
12.5:1 CR
ITB
VR cam and crank sensors
8 tooth (no skip) crank wheel and 1 tooth cam wheel.
Denso 2 wire COP fired with Quadspark from MS3x


I started working with a 24-2 wheel on the crank but had trouble with the missing tooth going away, I adjusted the pots but had no real luck. I switched back to an 8-1 wheel (stock with 1 tooth removed commonly used on the zx12r that my motor is based on) and I finally switched back to the stock 8 tooth wheel with no teeth removed. Up to this point I had sync loss but it was due to the crank not the cam signal (reason 2 even with a resistor on VR+) now the problem is reason 17. I have adjusted the edge settings from rising to falling and back and forth but it made no difference (changed the edge but still had sync loss) and I have also indexed the cam wheel in a different spot on cranking and it also made no difference, good clean composite logs while cranking and setting timing (plugs in or out) but when I try to fire it will cough once and die (reason 17) The wiring is away from any source of noise and I had it running but these sync losses are killing me.

How should I go from here?

tune, log and composite logs are attached

Sean

[jsmcortina]

Could you post a longer composite log please.

James

[smokeysevin]

I can only do it while cranking but yes I will, do you want it with plugs in or out and should I let the fuel and spark go or disable them?

Sean

[Barton]

do the log with everything working I'll do this steps in order:

remove that resistor.

do the log again.

pay attention to the gap between the teeth and the vr sensor, maybe one of them is lower than the others (I have that experience one tooth was lower by 0.3mm than the others and the ecu was detecting a missing tooth there)

turn off the secuential injection until your engine is running.

do you have all the wires soldered?

separate the coil wires (between the coils and the quadspark) from the principal harness.

Do you have access to an oscilloscope?

[smokeysevin]

Resistor is out already it made no difference.
All connections are soldered.
I'll switch back to waste spark and batch fire.
The quadspark setup is pretty well isolated already.
I do not have access to a scope.
The trigger wheel on the crank is a brand new factory part but I'll check it with calipers.

How long do you want the composite log? I normally do it for about 30 seconds.

Sean.

[Barton]

remember is wasted cop.

try to do a composite log for at least 4 pages, I think it would be aroung 10 or 15 seconds.

can you put the sensor closer to the trigger? sometimes it helps. (after you check it with calipers).

[jsmcortina]

turn off the secuential injection until your engine is running.

Why?

James

[Barton]

I always start an engine the simpliest way I can, and then I start to switch all the good features one by one the ecu has for that case, in some cases it has made the difference, maybe bad wiring (mistakes) or anything if he uses batch fire injection and the engines starts, then he switches to secuencial and the engines does not start anymore, or gets backfire or anything he could realise that he has a wiring problems, that way everyone can diagnostic a problem.

[smokeysevin]

I can't adjust the sensors, they are fixed. And yes I meant wasted cop.

Sean

[smokeysevin]

Reset everything to the most basic I could but I am still getting really bad sync loss while cranking, I am thinking about switching back to the 24-2 wheel because while I had problems with sync loss 2 but it wasn't as bad as it is now, I am getting backfires out the exhaust when the motor does kick but nothing else. I tried to turn on noise filtering but that made no difference. Does the sync loss look like it's coming from the cam or crank? That would be the place to start looking for problems.

Sean

[Barton]

does your trigger wheel look like this one?

I see a pattern but it is odd, please take a picture or link of your trigger wheel, maybe it is not a simetric trigger or something like that, see the picture.

your problem is in the crank signal see this picture:


red: looks like a missing tooth or a big tooth
blue: this should be the pattern but all the signal not just those 3 teeth.

if that trigger wheel does not have a simetric teeth pattern use your 24-2, but I dont know about the max trigger count per second of the MS, but sometimes that much teeth could make an overflow or something we dont want, maybe james could help us in this case.

[smokeysevin]

Its an 8 tooth evenly spaced wheel. Its a high compression motor with a 180 degree crank and big Cam so that's just the motor slowing down. I have the 24-2 and a modified 8 tooth with 1 removed. I checked the harness again and I'm adding some extra shielding but the motor started faster and smoother on the 24-2 wheel. I'm also going to notch the pickup on the crank to slide it a little closer.

Sean

[billr]

Look at the tooth-time log also, that will show more clearly if it is just a matter of cranking-speed variation. Which I doubt.

[smokeysevin]

here is a tooth log of the 24-2 wheel and a composite log with the plugs out.

Sean

[billr]

Sorry, I can't view the .csv, only "screen shots". You will have to wait for another MSer to take a peek.

[smokeysevin]

no big deal, I took a tooth and composite log with the plugs in and everything looks good so far, again I am using the 24-2 wheel.

Plugs in but no fuel or spark. timing is dead on with a tooth angle of 123.9

Sean

[smokeysevin]

I should also add that I had the vr sensor wired correctly with it grounded at the main board but I pulled both wires aside and isolated them in their own heat shrink which seemed to help. I could not find the metallic cable shield but separating them seems to help.

Sean

[smokeysevin]

It starts and will idle for a few seconds but then it dies.

Sean

[smokeysevin]

Switched to COP ignition and semi sequential fuel and turned off fixed timing and it runs much better now.

Log from just now. I tried to rev it up a few times but it died.

I also noticed my afr is all over the place in a repeating manner but the physical gauge reads constant. I thought it was just because it wouldn't start but even while running its all over the place. The module is an aem uego. I thought I had the correct gauge setup but I guess not. Any thoughts?

Sean

[billr]

I still see too many sync errors to bother with the tune right now. Sync has to be solid for anything to work right. Also, I would turn off EGO correction until it is running somewhat OK.