How does MS3 Control Water Injection

[kd7jmy]

MOD NOTE : * first post contents removed by original poster *
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[prof315]

MS can indeed control a "fast" valve with PWM provided it doesn't pull too much current. It can also PWM control the pump but you have to use one of the mainboard injector drivers or an external driver to do so as most Aquatech or Shurflo WMI pumps draw 10-15A at 100% duty. If you look at the WMI drop down menu you'll see it's set up so you can turn on the pump with 1 output (use a relay here) and then with a second output run a valve.

When I was running my WMI I used the 1st output to turn on a relay that provided B+ to the pump and the used INJ1 on the ground side of the pump to PWM control it. But that's only because I couldn't find a PWM controllable valve for less than $200 which was almost 1/2 the cost of my whole system.

[kd7jmy]

well ill try it again. right now its working just by the output pins. but i want pwm of the valve since i want to go up a size in injectors.

[3rdcarmx5]

Okay, so I RTM and saw what I was missing. No need to answer this.

Can you go into more detail on your setup? I wanted to control my WI without a fast solenoid and with a check valve. I understand the relay hooked up to the positive side of the pump, but how did you wire the INJ to pump GND? I thought the INJ was an output only, and a second relay would not allow PWM control the ground. How did this setup work?

[13bdarren]

I am using the same setup as prof315. has being working great for this season. I really like the control I have over it. Made it much easier to tune.

[prof315]

Okay, so I RTM and saw what I was missing. No need to answer this.

Can you go into more detail on your setup? I wanted to control my WI without a fast solenoid and with a check valve. I understand the relay hooked up to the positive side of the pump, but how did you wire the INJ to pump GND? I thought the INJ was an output only, and a second relay would not allow PWM control the ground. How did this setup work?

The mainboard injector drivers ( INJ1 and INJ2) are ground drivers. They don't provide power but rather ground. You simply hook INJ 1 directly to the negative side of the pump.

[Lapkritis]

Aquamist fast acting valve ... how much current does it draw? Anyone... had an external driver when I had it setup with MS1 to mirror injector channel but need more detail to know if I can ditch that box and drive directly with MS3X on a 6cyl with sequential fuel.

[Lapkritis]

Looking for more detail on setting this up properly in the software.



Is the table here for the pump duty cycle or the valve duty cycle or both? This is not specified in the manual or TS. Is a 3rd output needed to control the relay for the B+ side of the relay for the pump and valve?

[prof315]

The table is for the valve (if you are using one). If I were to set up a WMI system with a proper PWM controlled valve I would use 1 output to control a relay that would provide fused power to the pump and a second output to control the valve.

[Lapkritis]

So if you want to PWM the pump as you described above... do you attach it to the specified valve output? If so, what frequency did you choose? I have what I thought was an early Aquamist FAV and had it wired as such when running MS1 water-meth control but when I put a multimeter to it the resistance was 22.4 ohm... I would like to control the valve as well as PWM the pump.

[Lapkritis]

is whatever is selected for the pump out automatically set to 100% DC with the valve out as PWM? I'm planning to use ms3x for fuel so I will have the bank1/2 on the board for WM... just need to know how they work.

[prof315]

So if you want to PWM the pump as you described above... do you attach it to the specified valve output? If so, what frequency did you choose? I have what I thought was an early Aquamist FAV and had it wired as such when running MS1 water-meth control but when I put a multimeter to it the resistance was 22.4 ohm... I would like to control the valve as well as PWM the pump.

You can't PWM 2 outputs with MS3's water injection system. Nor would you want to. The best way to run a progressive water/meth injection system is with a fast valve. That way you keep your pump pressure at max and get better atomization.

If you don't have a fast valve then you need to PWM control the pump. Most standalone progressive controllers use this method and it can be done with MS as well. If you want to do things this way, there a several approaches.

1: Use the pump output to control a relay that provides fused power to the pump and the valve output on the ground side of the pump to PWM control it. I had mine set up this way. I also had a check valve installed in the water/meth line near the nozzle to prevent siphoning. Only the mainboard INJ1 and INJ2 drivers have the current capacity to PWM a water/meth pump.

2: Provide fused power to the pump and use the valve output to PWM it. Use the pump output to control a relay that provides fused power to an on/off anti-siphon solenoid valve.

3: Use the pump output to control a relay that provides power to the pump and the solenoid valve and use the valve output to PWM the pump.

When using the valve output to PWM the pump I got my best results setting the valve style to Fast.

[nathaninwa]

Bumping this thread. In the last post I would like to do option 3. I have an AEM kit that use a pwm controller to run the pump directly with no valve at the spray head. Theres a check vavle at the nozzle itself.

So My question is. Ill use an injector output from Pro to control a Bosch 30 amp standard relay? Ill use the relay to cycle ground since the pump is already fused with 12v power.

[Blue93Dakota]

I think you want a 12v fused wire going to the + side of the relay and an output signal from the MS for the pump to go to the ground side of the relay. So that is one output from the MS used to turn the pump power relay on. The relay outputs +12 to the positive of the pump when the MS tells that relay to turn on. No PWM.

The other output from the MS would be going to the negative side of the pump and would be your PWM for the pump.

Make sense?

[nathaninwa]

I didnt think MS would handle 10amps on the injector output. So I would be using the pwm output to control the relay's coil, which would cycle the ground to the pump just as aem does right now.

[Blue93Dakota]

I don't think a normal relay will run fast enough. I don't know though.

[2Lucky2tha7]

I've been searching for any information pertaining to utilizing water injection but I have not been able to find what I'm looking for. I understand how the MS can drive the pump and all and I would actually prefer to set it up to be at full pressure as opposed to varying the pressure, but what if someone wants to use the MS to be able to control an injector or 2 via pwm instead of using a fixed nozzle and in turn wants to be able to tune the injector accordingly to tune the water/meth mixture? Unfortunately there is very little if any documentation regarding water injection hence why I am asking this in the forum. Any advice, info or direction would be greatly appreciated!

[prof315]

I've been searching for any information pertaining to utilizing water injection but I have not been able to find what I'm looking for. I understand how the MS can drive the pump and all and I would actually prefer to set it up to be at full pressure as opposed to varying the pressure, but what if someone wants to use the MS to be able to control an injector or 2 via pwm instead of using a fixed nozzle and in turn wants to be able to tune the injector accordingly to tune the water/meth mixture? Unfortunately there is very little if any documentation regarding water injection hence why I am asking this in the forum. Any advice, info or direction would be greatly appreciated!

Have you read through this whole thread? Also you don't use an injector with water/methanol injection but you can use a fast acting valve ( like an injector but made for the water and methanol both of which would corrode a normal injector) and control it with PWM to vary your flow rate.

[Tjabo]

Just checking in on the current status of MS controlled water/methanol injection. I see that Howerton Engineering doesn't seem to have their fast acting valve available any more, so I was trying to figure out if something like this might work:

http://valvesandinstruments.com/pdf/ASC ... _GP_R5.pdf

I don't really see a cycle time or whatever it would be called, to indicate if it can respond quickly enough for mapping the output of a nozzle or set of nozzles as additional fueling to some extent...

Prof315, I had a coolingmist PWM pump speed controller before, and I was never completely sure I liked that method of ramping in the injection volume. How did you find it to work with your setup, and did you ever do any measurements to see how effectively it was able to vary the delivery rate in that fashion while maintaining good atomization?

[prof315]

Prof315, I had a coolingmist PWM pump speed controller before, and I was never completely sure I liked that method of ramping in the injection volume. How did you find it to work with your setup, and did you ever do any measurements to see how effectively it was able to vary the delivery rate in that fashion while maintaining good atomization?

Using a V3.0/V3.57 mainboard injector driver with PWM I was able to vary the flow on a #5 nozzle from about 100cc/min to 400cc/min and maintain atomization. Howerton still carries fast valves by the way or at least they are still on the website just in a new location.