Never ending problem
Moderators: jsmcortina, muythaibxr
-
- Site Admin
- Posts: 39619
- Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 1:34 am
- Location: Birmingham, UK
- Contact:
Re: Never ending problem
Those captures don't make sense at all.
Seems you either have serious cross talk between "cam" and "crank" sensors or possibly the wires are mixed up - check your wiring. http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms3/trigger- ... tml#nippon
It should look like the Nippondenso examples at the end of http://www.msextra.com/doc/general/toot ... mples.html
James
Seems you either have serious cross talk between "cam" and "crank" sensors or possibly the wires are mixed up - check your wiring. http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms3/trigger- ... tml#nippon
It should look like the Nippondenso examples at the end of http://www.msextra.com/doc/general/toot ... mples.html
James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk
My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
New users, please read the "Forum Help Page".
My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
New users, please read the "Forum Help Page".
-
- Super MS/Extra'er
- Posts: 17507
- Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:08 pm
Re: Never ending problem
It looks to me like you are getting the cam signal but not the crank signal. Check to be sure you haven't jumpered the main board for Hall/optical input.
Matt Cramer -1966 Dodge Dart slant six running on MS3X
Re: Never ending problem
Thats exactly what i thought!jsmcortina wrote:Those captures don't make sense at all.
Seems you either have serious cross talk between "cam" and "crank" sensors or possibly the wires are mixed up - check your wiring. http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms3/trigger- ... tml#nippon
It should look like the Nippondenso examples at the end of [url]file:///shared/efi/msextra/newsite/doc/general/toothlogexamples.html[/url]
James
step 1: check wiring for cam and crank sensors
Step 2: check jumper and make sure the main board isnt jumpered for HALL/OPTICAL input (as per http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms3/ignition.html#tachint) Right? But this is a bit strange if the crank is jumpered for this because it requires extra work (100% certain i didnt add anything to the proto area)
if the above items are OK then should i rewire the VR sensors using 2 shielded cables? 1 for cam 1 for crank?
Re: Never ending problem
Well this is embarrassing, and ill take all the abuse i deserve lol.
Main Plug
Pin 1-> should be G- (nothing was wired here)
Pin 24-> should be NE (G- was wired to here)
Pin 8-> should be nothing (NE was wired here)
Cam signal was wired correctly on Plug 2.
Pin 8 is still a ground, hence the crank signal would work just opposite polarity right? But the cam signal has no effective ground correct, as it would want to ground to pin 24, which is not an internal ground in the MS unit....
Shame on me
Main Plug
Pin 1-> should be G- (nothing was wired here)
Pin 24-> should be NE (G- was wired to here)
Pin 8-> should be nothing (NE was wired here)
Cam signal was wired correctly on Plug 2.
Pin 8 is still a ground, hence the crank signal would work just opposite polarity right? But the cam signal has no effective ground correct, as it would want to ground to pin 24, which is not an internal ground in the MS unit....
Shame on me
Re: Never ending problem
Ok well i rewired the NE sensor to pin 24 where it should be, but i left the ground on pin 8 because its still a ground. Does the Crank sensor (G-) NEED to go to pin 2? should i wire it to Pin 2? I just thought that all of those pins are grounds and it should be ok? Please let me know if this is incorrect!!!
Check my latest composite logs now. Its giving a much better cam signal, but still they're not spaced by 24 teeth on the crank wheel and not even either. Please note that i sometimes started cranking for a few seconds, then stopped, then started again for a few seconds in the same log. But these points are kinda clear i guess. I tried different combinations of falling/raising edge triggers and i also removed the pin for G1 completely from the plug because i thought it was possibly giving crosstalk into the cam signal (sometimes 12tooth spacing...)
So I'm not sure what i should try next. Adjusting the 2 pots on the MSx board? start with hysteresis first?
Check my latest composite logs now. Its giving a much better cam signal, but still they're not spaced by 24 teeth on the crank wheel and not even either. Please note that i sometimes started cranking for a few seconds, then stopped, then started again for a few seconds in the same log. But these points are kinda clear i guess. I tried different combinations of falling/raising edge triggers and i also removed the pin for G1 completely from the plug because i thought it was possibly giving crosstalk into the cam signal (sometimes 12tooth spacing...)
So I'm not sure what i should try next. Adjusting the 2 pots on the MSx board? start with hysteresis first?
-
- Site Admin
- Posts: 39619
- Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 1:34 am
- Location: Birmingham, UK
- Contact:
Re: Never ending problem
The log "REWIRE A" looks best - what settings were they?
How does the engine run with those settings? Take a comp log at idle and with the engine revving.
James
How does the engine run with those settings? Take a comp log at idle and with the engine revving.
James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk
My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
New users, please read the "Forum Help Page".
My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
New users, please read the "Forum Help Page".
Re: Never ending problem
that was falling edge crank and raising edge cam triggers. No noise filtering at all.
I didnt even try starting it cause i wasnt sure if it was OK. So i should give it a shot and see if it runs with that signal? Then composite log while its running idle/rev. I better double check the timing before i do that
I didnt even try starting it cause i wasnt sure if it was OK. So i should give it a shot and see if it runs with that signal? Then composite log while its running idle/rev. I better double check the timing before i do that
-
- Site Admin
- Posts: 39619
- Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 1:34 am
- Location: Birmingham, UK
- Contact:
Re: Never ending problem
Give it a go.
James
James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk
My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
New users, please read the "Forum Help Page".
My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
New users, please read the "Forum Help Page".
Re: Never ending problem
Things to do
1) Make sure the pull voltage source for both crank and cam is from different place, as recommended in ms3 document, 5v from proto area 5v for pull up ms3's Tach Input, JP7 pull up on ms3x Tach Input, check their voltage too ! simply place 1 Multimeter's terminal at signal wire and another terminal on ms3 ground
2) Check the signal quality 1 by 1 ! , connect 24 tooth's wire to ms3 and monitor the signal quality , possible please capture a composite logger , now remove the 24 tooth's wire and put in the single tooth signal wire and do the same thing, post the composite logger at here , if found anything is no good , go play around with the r56 ( ms3 )
3) Do the same test but this time on ms3x input , capture both tested composite logger at here.
4) So the primary tach will be 24 tooth, correct ? so connect 24 tooth signal wire to ms3 board and single tooth to ms3x.
Please do not assume a rough looking signal is fine when you crank it, you need to tweak it to get best signal quality as possible in order to get a clean start , immediately starting up ... this is a common problem on this forum, as they get super clean signal when engine fire up and running but always having difficult start , mostly they suspect on others thing
End Story
KennyX
1) Make sure the pull voltage source for both crank and cam is from different place, as recommended in ms3 document, 5v from proto area 5v for pull up ms3's Tach Input, JP7 pull up on ms3x Tach Input, check their voltage too ! simply place 1 Multimeter's terminal at signal wire and another terminal on ms3 ground
2) Check the signal quality 1 by 1 ! , connect 24 tooth's wire to ms3 and monitor the signal quality , possible please capture a composite logger , now remove the 24 tooth's wire and put in the single tooth signal wire and do the same thing, post the composite logger at here , if found anything is no good , go play around with the r56 ( ms3 )
3) Do the same test but this time on ms3x input , capture both tested composite logger at here.
4) So the primary tach will be 24 tooth, correct ? so connect 24 tooth signal wire to ms3 board and single tooth to ms3x.
Please do not assume a rough looking signal is fine when you crank it, you need to tweak it to get best signal quality as possible in order to get a clean start , immediately starting up ... this is a common problem on this forum, as they get super clean signal when engine fire up and running but always having difficult start , mostly they suspect on others thing
End Story
KennyX
Endless learning on every kind of New Technology
Re: Never ending problem
Well got the timing within 5deg while cranking. Then started it and it started up really quick, within 2 seconds. Ran bit rough due to being too lean i think so i richened up the idle mixtures. Obviously it would run a lot better if i turned off the fixed timing of 10deg lol but i haven't finished setting the timing.
Please check out my logs, i have total of 7 loss sync counts over 2meg of logs, with a few starts. Theres no loss of sync while the car is running, only when cranking. Not sure if these are concern points or not so any input is very welcomed! Thanks again everyone, this is a great community, we all want our projects to progress haha
Sorry, my cranking log was 1.4meg, so i used my rapidshare account and uploaded it there:
https://rapidshare.com/files/2702974291 ... .16.59.msl
Please check out my logs, i have total of 7 loss sync counts over 2meg of logs, with a few starts. Theres no loss of sync while the car is running, only when cranking. Not sure if these are concern points or not so any input is very welcomed! Thanks again everyone, this is a great community, we all want our projects to progress haha
Sorry, my cranking log was 1.4meg, so i used my rapidshare account and uploaded it there:
https://rapidshare.com/files/2702974291 ... .16.59.msl
Re: Never ending problem
Obviously your 24 tooth signal is wrong, please tweak or test it according my instruction in last post.
KennyX
KennyX
Endless learning on every kind of New Technology
Re: Never ending problem
what is telling u that my 24 tooth signal is wrong? my composite logs show clearly 24 crank then 1 cam then 24 crank and 1 cam? Only during a cranking period do i get an error or when i kill the engine. Which is shomewhat expected no? (check my composite log above "REWIRE A")
Re: Never ending problem
my mistake ..sorry.. i messed up the csv file from your earlier post, anyway .. have try to swap both 24 tooth and single tooth wire ?
U do loss sync according to the " rewire a ", the 24 tooth show missing tooth around 12-13th tooth ..
White smoke cause by water vapor , blown head gasket ?
Broken ring land will produce blue smoke = eat oil
KennyX
U do loss sync according to the " rewire a ", the 24 tooth show missing tooth around 12-13th tooth ..
White smoke cause by water vapor , blown head gasket ?
Broken ring land will produce blue smoke = eat oil
KennyX
Endless learning on every kind of New Technology
Re: Never ending problem
according to your " rewire B " , if the sec trigger was from ms3x input , go fix it ...
KennyX
KennyX
Endless learning on every kind of New Technology
Re: Never ending problem
each of those composite logs i was swapping settings for the trigger type. Regarding the white vapour, its a problem ill fix once the MS is running correctly. Anyways, ill focus on getting the timing right atmKennyx wrote:according to your " rewire B " , if the sec trigger was from ms3x input , go fix it ...
KennyX
-
- Super MS/Extra'er
- Posts: 6828
- Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 11:41 am
- Location: Walnut Creek, Calif. USA
Re: Never ending problem
Um, yeah... we kind of glossed over the "white smoke" issue. It may be futile to try getting it to run OK if you really do have a bad head gasket, cracked piston, bad rings, etc. You can get sync rock-solid no matter how bad the engine is running, but why keep trying to tune it? I would sure satisfy myself that the mechanical innards are good first.
Re: Never ending problem
Ofcourse, i totally agree. But it was not permanant (a minute or so) and i havent been able to see it again. Either way as i said, im trying to get my hands on a leak down tester and compression tester in the process to confirm these things. I cant see any other signs of a blown HG or any other serious concerns such as contaminated oil or coolant. If i get any other signs of a blown HG then obviously i will turn my attention to that and forget about tuning the car until its fixed.billr wrote:Um, yeah... we kind of glossed over the "white smoke" issue. It may be futile to try getting it to run OK if you really do have a bad head gasket, cracked piston, bad rings, etc. You can get sync rock-solid no matter how bad the engine is running, but why keep trying to tune it? I would sure satisfy myself that the mechanical innards are good first.
So, please help me focus on the main item atm which is getting the car and MS interfacing correctly. From yesterday, it seemed pretty good, started quickly and ran well while i was getting the timing correct. I will continue from here to check if i have a blown head gasket as well as getting my timing correct.
Hope i dont sound ignorant or something, If i find any good signs of engine damage i will obviously stop and focus on that.
Re: Never ending problem
If you have crisp clean tach signal , you will able to start up your engine flawless no matter 0 ...5...or 10 degree ..
Since you said you having backfire (pop) when cranking , it is indicated that your tach signal is probaly not good when cranking .
Unless you have these mistake in you tune file msq.
1) Ignition base timing was wrong
2) first tooth angle wrong, you will still able to start engine since you are running on distributor but with sluggish response
3) Req_fuel correct ?
If you think the headgasket is in perfect condition but engine produce white smoke ( and you sure what u see is white smoke )
Have you done any port and polish on your intake port ?
Water in you fuel tank ?
Leaking intake manifold runner's gasket ? if theres a coolant connection..
KennyX
Since you said you having backfire (pop) when cranking , it is indicated that your tach signal is probaly not good when cranking .
Unless you have these mistake in you tune file msq.
1) Ignition base timing was wrong
2) first tooth angle wrong, you will still able to start engine since you are running on distributor but with sluggish response
3) Req_fuel correct ?
If you think the headgasket is in perfect condition but engine produce white smoke ( and you sure what u see is white smoke )
Have you done any port and polish on your intake port ?
Water in you fuel tank ?
Leaking intake manifold runner's gasket ? if theres a coolant connection..
KennyX
Endless learning on every kind of New Technology
-
- Site Admin
- Posts: 39619
- Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 1:34 am
- Location: Birmingham, UK
- Contact:
Re: Never ending problem
I've not looked at the logs yet, but if it fires up ok and runs without sync-loss then I would proceed to tuning it.nuk1ear wrote:Please check out my logs, i have total of 7 loss sync counts over 2meg of logs, with a few starts. Theres no loss of sync while the car is running, only when cranking. Not sure if these are concern points or not so any input is very welcomed! Thanks again everyone, this is a great community, we all want our projects to progress haha
Do check that your timing is EXACTLY spot on and that it doesn't drift with rpm when using "fixed timing".
James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk
My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
New users, please read the "Forum Help Page".
My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
New users, please read the "Forum Help Page".
Re: Never ending problem
thats my plan.jsmcortina wrote:I've not looked at the logs yet, but if it fires up ok and runs without sync-loss then I would proceed to tuning it.nuk1ear wrote:Please check out my logs, i have total of 7 loss sync counts over 2meg of logs, with a few starts. Theres no loss of sync while the car is running, only when cranking. Not sure if these are concern points or not so any input is very welcomed! Thanks again everyone, this is a great community, we all want our projects to progress haha
Do check that your timing is EXACTLY spot on and that it doesn't drift with rpm when using "fixed timing".
James
KennyX - I think you have become lost in this thread. Originally i was having those issues that u are describing (backfires, hard starting with any timing etc etc). Then i found that my wiring for NE and G- was around the wrong way. Now that i have fixed it, the car starts quickly. I will have some time in the next couple of days to get the timing 100%, after that i will continue. It appears so far, that my problem is now fixed. But i have to keep an eye on my tach signal, make sure its accurate