MS3X A4 1.8T Quattro Running and partically mapped

General support questions and announcements for MS3. See also MS3 manuals.

Moderators: jsmcortina, muythaibxr

prof315
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 3760
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 3:13 am
Location: Melbourne, FL

Re: MS3X 1.8T no crank signal

Post by prof315 »

lotus23C wrote:Hi Guys, sorry to hi-jack this thread.
There is some talk of throttle bodies and IAC. Is it possible to use the AEB's throttle body idle control? I had heard no one had much success and I have planned to use a 2 wire PWM valve and ABA throttle body.
Thanks
Patrick
That is exactly what we are discussing. I have had some fairly good success using the built in idle control on the OBD2 throttle bodies. Read through the whole post and I have described how to hook one up and use the built in idle motor. One thing though.... they work best CLEAN and not covered with gooey, oily carbon .
Linfert Performance/321 Motorsports
SCCA 2019 SM National Champion Crew Chief
SCCA 2023 FP National Champion Tuner/electrical engineer
100s of MS systems built installed and tuned
Support the developers!
T3Bunny
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 1391
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 8:44 pm
Location: Miami, Florida

Re: MS3X 1.8T no crank signal

Post by T3Bunny »

Professor, your information is very useful and interesting! If it would not be a bother, I would LOVE to see an idle tuned .msq!!! The OP, Drunken_M, might also be able to benefit from the basic idle settings in there.
Forget the porn, my bathroom is full of car manuals...
1977 Rabbit (retired)
1991 Cabriolet (retired)
Drunken_M
Helpful MS/Extra'er
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:56 pm

Re: MS3X 1.8T no crank signal

Post by Drunken_M »

Now i have started the ms3x install, tps, clt, and iat is working, but i dont have the resistance to calibrate iat and clt. But i still dont get any rpms. Is it possible to see if one of the vr or hall sensor is working to se witch one that is the problem?
I will continue the install today, coils and injectors has to be finished.
T3Bunny
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 1391
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 8:44 pm
Location: Miami, Florida

Re: MS3X 1.8T no crank signal

Post by T3Bunny »

The standard Bosch values are close enough to get you going for now.

Fire up Tuner Studio, and go to diagnostics. You can switch between Tooth Logger and Trigger Logger. You can even save a log file! Here you can quickly see if your getting signals and if they are clean.
Forget the porn, my bathroom is full of car manuals...
1977 Rabbit (retired)
1991 Cabriolet (retired)
Drunken_M
Helpful MS/Extra'er
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:56 pm

Re: MS3X 1.8T no crank signal

Post by Drunken_M »

But i dont have to save the log to see the signals? Because i have tried to check tooth logger and trigger logger without anything happening.
I have connected the CLT, IAT, TPS, Injectors, and Coils, is there something i have forgotten?
And if i have the polarity of the vr sensor wrong, would it send a signal anyway?
prof315
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 3760
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 3:13 am
Location: Melbourne, FL

Re: MS3X 1.8T no crank signal

Post by prof315 »

If the VR sensor polarity is inverted, yes you should still see something on the tooth logger but it will have 2 long "missing teeth instead of just one. More info is here: http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms2extra/MS2 ... ogger.html
Last edited by prof315 on Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
Linfert Performance/321 Motorsports
SCCA 2019 SM National Champion Crew Chief
SCCA 2023 FP National Champion Tuner/electrical engineer
100s of MS systems built installed and tuned
Support the developers!
prof315
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 3760
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 3:13 am
Location: Melbourne, FL

Re: MS3X 1.8T no crank signal

Post by prof315 »

Here's a copy of my current msq. 1.3 alpha 4 firmware for MS3Pro
Linfert Performance/321 Motorsports
SCCA 2019 SM National Champion Crew Chief
SCCA 2023 FP National Champion Tuner/electrical engineer
100s of MS systems built installed and tuned
Support the developers!
T3Bunny
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 1391
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 8:44 pm
Location: Miami, Florida

Re: MS3X 1.8T no crank signal

Post by T3Bunny »

Thanks Prof!
Forget the porn, my bathroom is full of car manuals...
1977 Rabbit (retired)
1991 Cabriolet (retired)
Drunken_M
Helpful MS/Extra'er
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:56 pm

Re: MS3X 1.8T no crank signal

Post by Drunken_M »

Tooth logger doesent show anything at all, is it a way to measure the ms3 board to se if it is working properly?
prof315
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 3760
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 3:13 am
Location: Melbourne, FL

Re: MS3X 1.8T no crank signal

Post by prof315 »

The first thing I would do is scope the VR signal going into MS, then check MS. And the easiest way to test the MS circuitry itself is with a Jimstim.
Last edited by prof315 on Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Linfert Performance/321 Motorsports
SCCA 2019 SM National Champion Crew Chief
SCCA 2023 FP National Champion Tuner/electrical engineer
100s of MS systems built installed and tuned
Support the developers!
T3Bunny
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 1391
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 8:44 pm
Location: Miami, Florida

Re: MS3X 1.8T no crank signal

Post by T3Bunny »

prof315 wrote:The first thing I would do is scope the VR signal going into MS, then check MS. And the easiest way to test the MS circuitry itself is with a Jimstim.
This would also be my first thought, if you have a Jimstim and or an oscilloscope.

The V3.0 boards are not easy to kill. If your getting communications and can talk to the ECU, the board is "most likely" okay and the issue lies in either your settings or your wiring up the ECU. If your NOT getting correct communications out of the ECU, then check with the ECU plugged into 12v, and see if you have 5v in the proto area (you could also check this outside the case with everything but the 12v power disconnected, if you have 5vref out, your okay). If you have 12v going into the ECU, but no comms and no 5v in the proto area, you likely hooked up something wrong in the engine bay and took out D19. I have seen this happen many a time during an install, and usually it can be traced to somebody wiring something wrong and feeding 12v back into the 5v area of the board. D19 blows. If you clip d19 and the ecu comes back alive, then replace D19. Obviously do this with everything disconnected except power to the ECU and your comm connection.

Seriously though, the only regular failures I see on V3.0 units are D19 acting as a fuse and blowing. This only happens during install when something gets a quick short or connected up wrong. And it can almost always be traced back to TPS, or a 5v Hall connected to 12v. If you did not build your harness and still using the OE one make SURE it is not sending 12v power into the MegaSquirt.

Anyways, we will assume your ECU is okay though (and if it passed the above, it really should be) and move on.

If tooth logger doesn't show anything, then first off just make sure your software is seeing something at least and is setup right. If you can see at least some sort of feedback like your IAT or CLT temps and TPS you should be okay at least for the communications. Next, make sure your settings are configured correctly. Did you select the right wheeldecoder bits? The right tooth combination? Cylinders etc?

Make sure this is all correct. If your not running with a KNOWN CORRECT .msq, this is the most likely cause. If you think you have a good .msq (tune file) then this is still a good chance something is configured wrong. If that .msq is set correctly for somebody else, unless their wiring, pins, and expansion boards are setup IDENTICAL, there is still likely to be a difference.

If still unsure, post up an .msq for us and maybe we can decipher something. If it is a pinout or wiring discrepancy though, we are not likely to notice anything wrong in the .msq.

Next, triple check your wiring from the sensor plugs to the ECU. Continuity? Are each wire going to the correct ECU pin? Are the INTERNAL jumpers INSIDE the ECU correct? (Post up the jumper details details, and maybe any open holes too). Did you have the TPS working? Do you see 5v (or 12v) at the hall sensor? Again, be extra careful here. If the OE harness is still supplying 12v to any of the pins on that hall, and you incorrectly hook it up to the 5v ref out on your ECU, pop goes D19.

If all the above tests out okay, take a break and check again. Something likely is wired up, or configured wrong.

I assume your car was running with NO ISSUES on the OE setup? If so, your crank and Hall sensors "should" be okay unless you cooked them. But you can use this document to help you test your VR sensor: Link ECU VR Test ALso there is a lot more information on both Hall and VR sensors here: In the MegaManual.

If you verify wiring and pinouts are good, ECU configurations match your wiring, and are good, and AGAIN verify your sensors are good, then it might be time to dig into the ECU further. At this point though, you may need to enlist some hands on outside expert help. The way I would be testing the ECU would be to start scoping it out with an Oscilloscope. Problem is if you don't know exactly what and exactly where your supposed to be seeing things, this would require poking at it with a known good unit sitting next to it.

I am pretty confident your ECU is fine, and just configured wrong, or wiring is wrong somewhere inside or outside the ECU. And every internal V3.0 ECU failure I can think of in the installs I have done, has just been D19 blowing and protecting everything. Usually the "failure" is not in the ECU, but in the wiring and setup.
Forget the porn, my bathroom is full of car manuals...
1977 Rabbit (retired)
1991 Cabriolet (retired)
T3Bunny
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 1391
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 8:44 pm
Location: Miami, Florida

Re: MS3X 1.8T no crank signal

Post by T3Bunny »

This guy has some simple tests using a DVM. If you don't at least have that, stop, go out and get one! :lol:

Testing CPS Sensor, Inductive (VR)

Testing Hall Sensor
Forget the porn, my bathroom is full of car manuals...
1977 Rabbit (retired)
1991 Cabriolet (retired)
Drunken_M
Helpful MS/Extra'er
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:56 pm

Re: MS3X 1.8T no crank signal

Post by Drunken_M »

a4-1.8tq-aeb-ms3x.msq
a4-1.8tq-aeb-ms3x.msq
Wow, thanks for all the input guys.
I did some testing today, i tried the test function on the coils, these are working, but i have wired coil 3 and 4 wrong, but this is an easy fix.
But i noticed that the test function for the injectors didn't work, nothing happens when i try to test them.
And i found a serius stupid mistake for the hall sensor voltage supply, i had wired the ground for the hall sensor the wrong way, so i grounded the OE ground cable to the engine, instead of grounding the sensor itself. But i fixed this.
But then, i notised, the TPS, CLT, and IAT where totally wrong and not working anymore, they worked fine yesterday. TPS doesent react when i touch it, and i cant calibrate it.
The CLT temp is going up and down, and the IAT is showing -40 degrees.

What could have happend here? Im not sure if this was working before i rewired the hall sensor ground and did the test on the coils.

I have attached the .msq i use as a base map, its from an another Norwegian with the same engine.
T3Bunny
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 1391
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 8:44 pm
Location: Miami, Florida

Re: MS3X 1.8T no crank signal

Post by T3Bunny »

Are you still using the OE harness? If so, I am betting there is your problem... VW and Audi do a lot of goofiness inside their harnesses, especially with grounds. Instead of changing stuff at the ECU plug, you may need to verify and correct it at the other end by say the TPS plug etc.

Blank moment (no coffee) but -40 means you have a sensor malfunction, and I think it is that you have the wrong side grounded. If your input is now grounded (and usually VW/Audi have all the grounds daisy chained together inside the harness) I am thinking this is why.

Disconnect that ground off the engine and see if you get your stuff back. If so...
Forget the porn, my bathroom is full of car manuals...
1977 Rabbit (retired)
1991 Cabriolet (retired)
Drunken_M
Helpful MS/Extra'er
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:56 pm

Re: MS3X 1.8T no crank signal

Post by Drunken_M »

Yes, i still use OE harness with the db37 soldered to the different sensors.
I tried to take the ground for the hall sensor off again, but still the same problem. I can try to ground the OE ground cable again like before when the other sensors where working. I really need to get the jimstim now, just to make sure the MS3X is working properly.
T3Bunny
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 1391
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 8:44 pm
Location: Miami, Florida

Re: MS3X 1.8T no crank signal

Post by T3Bunny »

At this point it is most likely you have wiring issues. NOT a bad ECU. I would get a Jimstim (heck I actually want to get one myself, but have never bothered) but while your waiting...

If this were my car, I would disconnect all the sensors etc and plug back in one at a time. Maybe isolating the problem sensor that way. I am suspecting the issue is the TPS. Plug it back in last.

In this stage, might also be a good idea to keep coils and injectors unplugged until your 110% sure you wired them all right. You do not need either plugged in to test for all the sensors working or RPM.

My new install/startup procedure (slightly simplified).

1) On first power up, keep fuel pump, coils, injectors unplugged. Turn key, test comm link.
2) Verify IAT, CLT and TPS working correctly. If anything is off, figure out WHY BEFORE proceeding. Once these are working...
3) Plug in crank and cam sensors. Verify you have RPM. DO NOT proceed until you have RPM when cranking. DOUBLE check all your wheel decoder settings also if anything looks amiss
4) Plug in and TRIPLE check wiring for injectors and coils. These can be activated in test mode via Tuner Studio too.
5) Plug in fuel pump, turn key. It should cycle once (or maybe twice depending on settings) then stop. If nothing, fix wiring.
6) At this point everything should be working. Go over your .msq two more times and verify it all looks good. Verify injector size and settings in your ECU.
7) All good? Then try and start it.

I take it as a matter of pride, out of the dozens of installs I have done, only a couple haven't started on the first try. They might not run for long, or well, but they start.
Forget the porn, my bathroom is full of car manuals...
1977 Rabbit (retired)
1991 Cabriolet (retired)
Drunken_M
Helpful MS/Extra'er
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:56 pm

Re: MS3X 1.8T no crank signal

Post by Drunken_M »

I hope my jimstime arraives this week, but untill then i will use your procedure.
BUT, i got the sensor working again with just grounding the hall sensor ground to the engine again, this is really strange.
With all sensors i mean IAT, CLT, and TPS.
But tried to crank it again, but no rpm.
But im really starting to regrett the decision of using stock harness.
I think i will wire the Hall sensor and the VR sensor without the OE harness, and then try it again. I think in the end i will just completly remove stock harness.

Thanks again for the help, hoping for some good results tomorrow, its nighty time here now, but i will reply tomorrow to update you guys.
eMTea
Experienced MS/Extra'er
Posts: 341
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 1:52 pm

Re: MS3X 1.8T no crank signal

Post by eMTea »

Remember to set fuel pump to "on" i output test mode, to get 12v to the injectors during testing. But do not test with the injectors plugged in, use some led lights from your local biltema shop ;)

I've been rather busy, will get back to you with a pinout for the OEM ecu tomorrow evening. I'm currently at a job in Poland.
There is no issues using the OE harness, it has nicely separated sensor ground and return wires, and will work just fine when you get the schematics and corrects your mistakes ;)
-MS3X, (V3 PCB) 1.2 RC 1 firmware. Controlling a light modified Audi 1.8TQ AEB 20v engine with Holset HE221W turbo, 299.4 HP and 400Nm at the hubs in Dynapack.
T3Bunny
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 1391
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 8:44 pm
Location: Miami, Florida

Re: MS3X 1.8T no crank signal

Post by T3Bunny »

Drunken_M wrote:I hope my jimstime arraives this week, but untill then i will use your procedure...
If you want to donate your JimStim when your done, I can PM you my address!!! :lol:
Forget the porn, my bathroom is full of car manuals...
1977 Rabbit (retired)
1991 Cabriolet (retired)
T3Bunny
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 1391
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 8:44 pm
Location: Miami, Florida

Re: MS3X 1.8T no crank signal

Post by T3Bunny »

eMTea wrote:...There is no issues using the OE harness, it has nicely separated sensor ground and return wires, and will work just fine when you get the schematics and corrects your mistakes ;)
Good to hear, as I have taken apart some earlier OBD2 harnesses where this is NOT the case. Still, it does sound like the grounds for the sensors are all running to a common location in the harness... Even if a couple common locations9Say all sensors to a common ground to the ECU), this could cause, or contribute to, the issues described. Amongst other "wiring errors"! :lol:
Forget the porn, my bathroom is full of car manuals...
1977 Rabbit (retired)
1991 Cabriolet (retired)
Post Reply