MS3X A4 1.8T Quattro Running and partically mapped

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Re: MS3X 1.8T no crank signal

Postby Drunken_M » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:32 pm

Hello again eMTea,
i hope you are right about the OE harness, but i have a bad feeling that my 2 connector ecu harness is not completly the same as your 5 connector ecu harness. But it should be possible to use it anyway, but this stock ground cable to the hall sensor has to be grounded at the engine when not in use, for me to get the TPS, CLT, IAT to work is just a mystery. But shouldent be to hard to find out why.
It would be really nice if you could send me the pinout today, and as you might have seen, i borrowed your .msq as a startmap, i hope this is okey :)

T3Bunny, you can borrow my JimStim if you pick it up here in Norway and deliver it after use :lol:
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Re: MS3X 1.8T no crank signal

Postby prof315 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:44 am

Drunken_M wrote:Hello again eMTea,
i hope you are right about the OE harness, but i have a bad feeling that my 2 connector ecu harness is not completly the same as your 5 connector ecu harness. But it should be possible to use it anyway, but this stock ground cable to the hall sensor has to be grounded at the engine when not in use, for me to get the TPS, CLT, IAT to work is just a mystery. But shouldent be to hard to find out why.
It would be really nice if you could send me the pinout today, and as you might have seen, i borrowed your .msq as a startmap, i hope this is okey :)

T3Bunny, you can borrow my JimStim if you pick it up here in Norway and deliver it after use :lol:


You NEVER want power grounds on the same wire as sensor grounds, and the cam sensor ground IS a power ground. This is why I ALWAYS ground hall effect sensors to the engine block.
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Re: MS3X 1.8T no crank signal

Postby Drunken_M » Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:13 am

I have grounded the Hall sensor on the engine itself, one of the screws for the cylinder head cover.
But i have to ground the old hall sensor ground to the engine also for the other sensors to work, this is what i dont understand. I have to take a look at the harness here.
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Re: MS3X 1.8T no crank signal

Postby prof315 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:53 am

Ahh VAG wiring :D And BTW DO NOT use the 3X idle pin to run a throttle with built in idle control without an external diode for additional flyback protection! And it may still not be able to deal with it. I'm seeing if the developers can add some more pin options for PWM idle, the mainboard injector drivers would work well for this.
Last edited by prof315 on Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MS3X 1.8T no crank signal

Postby eMTea » Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:14 am

T3Bunny wrote:
eMTea wrote:...There is no issues using the OE harness, it has nicely separated sensor ground and return wires, and will work just fine when you get the schematics and corrects your mistakes ;)


Good to hear, as I have taken apart some earlier OBD2 harnesses where this is NOT the case. Still, it does sound like the grounds for the sensors are all running to a common location in the harness... Even if a couple common locations9Say all sensors to a common ground to the ECU), this could cause, or contribute to, the issues described. Amongst other "wiring errors"! :lol:


It might be a difference on the 2 connector an 5 connector ecu wiring.
I have made my plug'n'play, only broke the connector off a defective ecu, with no modifications to the OE harness, and everything works 100% for me. All the way from the beginning actually, I was surprised on how easy it was to get it up and running.
-MS3X, (V3 PCB) 1.1.2 firmware. Controlling a stock Audi 1.8TQ AEB 20v engine.
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Re: MS3X 1.8T no crank signal

Postby Drunken_M » Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:48 am

I thought it should be possible with my 2 connector harness also, have to just check my wiring again and see if i have done something wrong. But i thing i will rewire the hallsensor and vr sensor. To be 100% sure this is correct.
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Re: MS3X 1.8T no crank signal

Postby Drunken_M » Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:31 am

Is it suppose to be 12v or 5v to the vr sensor?
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Re: MS3X 1.8T no crank signal

Postby prof315 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:18 am

Drunken_M wrote:Is it suppose to be 12v or 5v to the vr sensor?


Neither, a VR sensor generates it's own signal without power. It's just a magnetic pickup that generates a sine wave when you spin the trigger wheel next to it.
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Re: MS3X 1.8T no crank signal

Postby Drunken_M » Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:32 am

If i just had started thinking i would have known that already.
But, i have checked the wiring on both hall sensor and vr sensor, and its all correct, but still no signal at all on the megasquirt.
But is it right that VR + is 11.57v when not cranking?
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Re: MS3X 1.8T no crank signal

Postby T3Bunny » Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:47 am

prof315 wrote:Neither, a VR sensor generates it's own signal without power. It's just a magnetic pickup that generates a sine wave when you spin the trigger wheel next to it.


Watch the video links I posted for you. A VR sensor generates AC voltage, not DC. You should NOT HAVE 12v DC on it when its not even doing anything. At best that 12v is wiping out any signal coming off the sensor.
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Re: MS3X 1.8T no crank signal

Postby Drunken_M » Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:56 am

First off, i really need some sleep, i should know this stuff.
But yes, i measured 12v dc on it. Mabye there is something wrong with the ms3 board?
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Re: MS3X 1.8T no crank signal

Postby prof315 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:01 pm

Drunken_M wrote:First off, i really need some sleep, i should know this stuff.
But yes, i measured 12v dc on it. Mabye there is something wrong with the ms3 board?


I rather doubt it but again, THIS IS WHY IT IS A VERY GOOD IDEA TO HAVE A JIMSTIM. It's also sounding more and more to me like you really need a Bently manual for your car. While track wiring diagrams are a pain at first to understand, if you don't have wiring diagrams for your car it will be very very very difficult to wire it correctly using the factory harness.
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Re: MS3X 1.8T no crank signal

Postby Drunken_M » Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:25 pm

I have followed a pinout diagram i found from a guy who mounted VEMS ecu.
And i have also ohmed/beeped the cables to the hall sensor and vr sensor multiple times. So im 99% sure that the woring to those sensors are correct. Thats why i am really fustrated right now.
I think i just have to wait until my jimstim arrives, hate waiting for packages you really need :x
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Re: MS3X 1.8T no crank signal

Postby T3Bunny » Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:44 pm

Drunken_M wrote:First off, i really need some sleep, i should know this stuff.
But yes, i measured 12v dc on it. Mabye there is something wrong with the ms3 board?


Sleep is overrated. And I agree with the Prof, nothing is wrong with your board. :roll:

If your not going to get the Bentley, take the OE harness out and make your own. You have wired up something wrong, or something inside that OE harness is whacked up from your misadventures so far. A new harness from scratch, takes me at most 5-8hrs to make up. If you cut up the old OE one for materials, add a few more in. The amount of headache and time you have spent diagnosing this, you could (well I know I could anyways) have had it running on a new harness.

Did you configure the internals of your ECU? If not, then who did, and did they supply at least ECU pinouts?

prof315 wrote:THIS IS WHY IT IS A VERY GOOD IDEA TO HAVE A JIMSTIM.


As much as I agree (ESPECIALLY in this case), I have gotten along for many years with just a basic stim. Although I also suspect here that there is a good chance the ECU hasn't been configured or jumpered right internally... Having said that, a JimStim is very high on my list of tool needs/wants. But I have lots of MS related tools I really don't "need" and can easily get by without.

My own VW is running a very similar setup to yours. MS3+MS3X with a VR crank and a Hall camshaft. I have full sequential fuel. I did all my tests listed previously. She fired and ran on the first try. Well? Not exactly... Took me a while (and a melted turbo) to figure out that my "spark output" was actually configured as something else... Even KNOWING better from the many many installs I have done, I was sure something was wrong with the ECU.

VEMS has almost nothing to do with MegaSquirt. Okay so you ohmed the wires, but did you check to see WHAT else that VR + wire is connected to in the harness? Unplug the ECU and power up the harness. If your seeing 12v on that VR sensor, you are getting power on it from somewhere inside the harness, because you wired it up wrong.

Try this and eliminate the OE harness for the VR and Hall. Run new cables, even if just simple, temporary, twisted wire for the VR, and see what happens.
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Re: MS3X 1.8T no crank signal

Postby prof315 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:51 pm

Drunken_M wrote:I have followed a pinout diagram i found from a guy who mounted VEMS ecu.
And i have also ohmed/beeped the cables to the hall sensor and vr sensor multiple times. So im 99% sure that the woring to those sensors are correct. Thats why i am really fustrated right now.
I think i just have to wait until my jimstim arrives, hate waiting for packages you really need :x


You didn't leave a pull-up on your primary tach input by chance? And remember VEMS is not Megasquirt. I have installed over 40 MS ECUs, over half of them on VAG products, and anytime I do an install using the factory harness (a dozen or so), I make sure I have the wiring diagrams for the car I am installing the MS on. At an absolute minimum I make sure I have access to engine management, power and ground circuit diagrams. Keep in mind I'm an auto tech with almost 30 years experience and wiring is one of my specialties.
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Re: MS3X 1.8T no crank signal

Postby Drunken_M » Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:06 pm

I have only linked tachselect to vrin, and tsel to vr out. This should be correct? I think its time to make a new harness atleast for tthe vr and hall sensor. Just to be sure of where the problem is.
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Re: MS3X 1.8T no crank signal

Postby eMTea » Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:32 pm

I don't understand how it is possible that the OE harness can be blamed for his 12v on the VR sensor.

I hope the schematics are readable, it is a password protected PDF (that drunken_m also have access to) and this is just screenshots on my Xperia Z phone.
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-MS3X, (V3 PCB) 1.1.2 firmware. Controlling a stock Audi 1.8TQ AEB 20v engine.
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Re: MS3X 1.8T no crank signal

Postby Drunken_M » Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:46 am

Well, i have an update for you guys, but i don't think you will like it anymore then i did.
First of all, the 12v i measured, this was not the vr sensor, i was a "bit" tired last night an measured the wrong pin.
Second of all, i wired the hall sensor, and the vr sensor with a new harness i made my self, and guess what, still the same problem, no rpm or trigger signal in the tunerstudio.
So i guess everyhing was wired correct with the stock harness.

So now im 99,5% sure the problem is either the MS3 ecu, or the .msq But the .msq is from a running AEB engine, but with the 5 connector harness not the 2 connector i have.

I opened the ms3 ecu box and took some pictures for you, mabye you can see something wrong there, lets hope so atleast.
And i noticed something strange now, before just one of the LED's were lighting when the ms3 was powered, but now its 2 of them like in the picture.

Here are some pics.
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Re: MS3X 1.8T no crank signal

Postby eMTea » Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:23 pm

I've seen some funny rpm readings in a friends A4 with APU motor. The cam sensor was probably not supported, so I switched his setup to wasted cop and batch fuel. Then it started right up. I've been working a lot lately, so haven't managed to dig any deeper into it. But try wasted cop, just for the test of the ecu not caring about cam signal.
-MS3X, (V3 PCB) 1.1.2 firmware. Controlling a stock Audi 1.8TQ AEB 20v engine.
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Re: MS3X 1.8T no crank signal

Postby Drunken_M » Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:37 pm

Can you help me with setting the right settings in the .msq? Or do you have his .msq mabye? Im not sure if i know correctly how to do it.
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