MS3-Pro Ford 4.6 4v startup issue (solved)

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Bilford
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Re: MS3-Pro Ford 4.6 4v startup issue

Post by Bilford »

Ok... So yesterday I fiddled with the car again. I can get the car to start up, run, and connect to lap top randomly. All of this, if I mess with the connectors at the ECU. I'll try and take the connectors apart later if I have time today. I have a busy day ahead of me with family. Wish me luck.

Billy
2001 Mustang Bullitt, MS3PRO, Ford 4.6 DOHC Stroked to 302ci, Race ported 04' C heads, stock cams, custom intake, Precision 8285 Turbo, 160lb high impedance injectors, LS7 ignition coils, Weldon 2035A, E85, Power Glide, Neal Chance converter

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Re: MS3-Pro Ford 4.6 4v startup issue

Post by jsmcortina »

Did you contact DIYautotune?

If you are using their pigtail looms, I am sure they will want to know about this issue and help you out.

James
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Bilford
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Re: MS3-Pro Ford 4.6 4v startup issue

Post by Bilford »

Absolutely. I emailed them on Friday morning. I am still waiting for a reply.
2001 Mustang Bullitt, MS3PRO, Ford 4.6 DOHC Stroked to 302ci, Race ported 04' C heads, stock cams, custom intake, Precision 8285 Turbo, 160lb high impedance injectors, LS7 ignition coils, Weldon 2035A, E85, Power Glide, Neal Chance converter

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Matt Cramer
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Re: MS3-Pro Ford 4.6 4v startup issue

Post by Matt Cramer »

Reply sent - the email had arrived mid-afternoon our time just before we closed for the weekend. We'll get this taken care of.
Matt Cramer -1966 Dodge Dart slant six running on MS3X
Bilford
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Re: MS3-Pro Ford 4.6 4v startup issue

Post by Bilford »

Matt Cramer wrote:Reply sent - the email had arrived mid-afternoon our time just before we closed for the weekend. We'll get this taken care of.

Thanks for the help Matt.

To fill in everyone else: Matt is mailing me some new pins for my connectors. I'll post an update when I get them installed. I should also note that I'm not 100% that this wasn't my fault. I could have spread the female pins when testing continuity on wires. I was careful when testing, but who knows. I am human. LOL

I am grateful to have Matt's and DIYautotunes awesome customer service! He has assisted me several times on previous projects and continues to provide great support!

Thanks again!

Billy
2001 Mustang Bullitt, MS3PRO, Ford 4.6 DOHC Stroked to 302ci, Race ported 04' C heads, stock cams, custom intake, Precision 8285 Turbo, 160lb high impedance injectors, LS7 ignition coils, Weldon 2035A, E85, Power Glide, Neal Chance converter

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Bilford
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Re: MS3-Pro Ford 4.6 4v startup issue

Post by Bilford »

Update:

I've fixed the connections on the ms3pro connectors and started doing some more work to try and fix the cam/crank sensor noise with the alternator plugged in. So far, no adjustments to the noise filters have helped. I've attached a composite log and the msq. You can see in the composite log when I disconnect the alternator and the signal is clean, and then lots of noise when its connected. Anyone have any suggestions? I'm about to try another alternator, but these d*** things are expensive and this one tested good.

Again, the cars runs and revs really well without the alternator plugged in. It will rev and run decent with it plugged in, but it is a very noticeable difference.

Thank you,

Billy
2001 Mustang Bullitt, MS3PRO, Ford 4.6 DOHC Stroked to 302ci, Race ported 04' C heads, stock cams, custom intake, Precision 8285 Turbo, 160lb high impedance injectors, LS7 ignition coils, Weldon 2035A, E85, Power Glide, Neal Chance converter

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ashford
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Re: MS3-Pro Ford 4.6 4v startup issue

Post by ashford »

took a look at the log. when things are good the cam trigger come in between the 16th and 17th tooth trigger, but never happens when there is "noise". i would try capturing from the opposite edge on the cam and or flip the polarity at the sensor. just for giggles.

how exaclty are the cam and crank wired to the ms3?
billr
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Re: MS3-Pro Ford 4.6 4v startup issue

Post by billr »

:msq:

There, finally got to use it! The only .msl I found in this thread looks like it was taken with the alternator not operating, how about an update, with the alt in service? Has the alternator been checked for AC ripple? Just what were the mods done that are alluded to here:

"I should also add that I had this alternator modified for greater output. Would this cause the issue I'm having?"
Bilford
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Re: MS3-Pro Ford 4.6 4v startup issue

Post by Bilford »

billr wrote::msq:

There, finally got to use it! The only .msl I found in this thread looks like it was taken with the alternator not operating, how about an update, with the alt in service? Has the alternator been checked for AC ripple? Just what were the mods done that are alluded to here:

"I should also add that I had this alternator modified for greater output. Would this cause the issue I'm having?"

The msq is attached to my previous message. A relevant datalog? Are the composite logs relevant?

Anyhow, I've attached a msl from yesterday with the alternator active.

The alternator was checked for AC ripple(diode leak) by the alternator shop. They said they tested the diodes and output.

The alternator has a different stator and regulator. Suppose to put out 200amps. I had this modified so long ago that I can't find the paperwork on it. It worked fine with the stock ECU, but I know that means nothing here.

Thanks for the help!
Billy
2001 Mustang Bullitt, MS3PRO, Ford 4.6 DOHC Stroked to 302ci, Race ported 04' C heads, stock cams, custom intake, Precision 8285 Turbo, 160lb high impedance injectors, LS7 ignition coils, Weldon 2035A, E85, Power Glide, Neal Chance converter

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Bilford
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Re: MS3-Pro Ford 4.6 4v startup issue

Post by Bilford »

[quote="ashford

how exaclty are the cam and crank wired to the ms3?[/quote]

I have the CKP+ and CKP- wired to the crank VR sensor, and the CMP+ and CMP- wired to the cam VR sensor. Both of these sensors have the 10K resistor installed across the + and - wires. I originally only had the cam sensor with the resistor, but added a resistor to the crank on a false hope it would help. It changed nothing.

I originally had to switch the wires on the cam sensor to get the engine running. I will switch back if you think it will help though.



Thanks again guys. I've never chased my tail so much on any car, and I've built plenty. I guess that's why I have the passion for it. I'm always learning something new. LOL


Billy
2001 Mustang Bullitt, MS3PRO, Ford 4.6 DOHC Stroked to 302ci, Race ported 04' C heads, stock cams, custom intake, Precision 8285 Turbo, 160lb high impedance injectors, LS7 ignition coils, Weldon 2035A, E85, Power Glide, Neal Chance converter

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wrenchdad
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Re: MS3-Pro Ford 4.6 4v startup issue

Post by wrenchdad »

Bilford wrote:
billr wrote::msq:

There, finally got to use it! The only .msl I found in this thread looks like it was taken with the alternator not operating, how about an update, with the alt in service? Has the alternator been checked for AC ripple? Just what were the mods done that are alluded to here:

"I should also add that I had this alternator modified for greater output. Would this cause the issue I'm having?"

The msq is attached to my previous message. A relevant datalog? Are the composite logs relevant?

Anyhow, I've attached a msl from yesterday with the alternator active.

The alternator was checked for AC ripple(diode leak) by the alternator shop. They said they tested the diodes and output.

The alternator has a different stator and regulator. Suppose to put out 200amps. I had this modified so long ago that I can't find the paperwork on it. It worked fine with the stock ECU, but I know that means nothing here.

Thanks for the help!
Billy
Yes, the alternator shop may have check it and it was OK by their test BUT you need to put a digital meter on the output and verify that there isn't AC in the DC output. Another thing to think about is the difference on Dwell when running with and without an ALT, the same thing can be said on the injector dead time, there will be almost a 3 volt difference with and without the ALT and that could be another factor to think about.

hope this helps
later wd
Bilford
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Re: MS3-Pro Ford 4.6 4v startup issue

Post by Bilford »

wrenchdad wrote:
Bilford wrote:
billr wrote::msq:

There, finally got to use it! The only .msl I found in this thread looks like it was taken with the alternator not operating, how about an update, with the alt in service? Has the alternator been checked for AC ripple? Just what were the mods done that are alluded to here:

"I should also add that I had this alternator modified for greater output. Would this cause the issue I'm having?"

The msq is attached to my previous message. A relevant datalog? Are the composite logs relevant?

Anyhow, I've attached a msl from yesterday with the alternator active.

The alternator was checked for AC ripple(diode leak) by the alternator shop. They said they tested the diodes and output.

The alternator has a different stator and regulator. Suppose to put out 200amps. I had this modified so long ago that I can't find the paperwork on it. It worked fine with the stock ECU, but I know that means nothing here.

Thanks for the help!
Billy
Yes, the alternator shop may have check it and it was OK by their test BUT you need to put a digital meter on the output and verify that there isn't AC in the DC output. Another thing to think about is the difference on Dwell when running with and without an ALT, the same thing can be said on the injector dead time, there will be almost a 3 volt difference with and without the ALT and that could be another factor to think about.

hope this helps
later wd

Thanks for the advice, I'll test the alternator output tomorrow if I get home before dark. My neighbors are good to me and I don't want to annoy them after dark to much. My car is a tad loud.

Billy
2001 Mustang Bullitt, MS3PRO, Ford 4.6 DOHC Stroked to 302ci, Race ported 04' C heads, stock cams, custom intake, Precision 8285 Turbo, 160lb high impedance injectors, LS7 ignition coils, Weldon 2035A, E85, Power Glide, Neal Chance converter

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ashford
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Re: MS3-Pro Ford 4.6 4v startup issue

Post by ashford »

i also said try changing "second trigger active on" setting from rising to falling, this will actually prove more important for testing. since the sencond trigger never happened in the same spot with the alternator working as it did with the alt off. it may be just triggering during the "drift" back to 0 volts instead of the 0 crossing during the passing of a tooth.

what kind of wires are you running? simply 2 wires, twisted pair or shilded bundle? i ask because i had abolutly no problems with my install. if your wire routing is the same as mine the cam wires are about 2 inches away from the alternator.

also my setup is identical to yours except unported heads and different turbo.
Bilford
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Re: MS3-Pro Ford 4.6 4v startup issue

Post by Bilford »

No progress this weekend.

First, I tried to switch the wires on the cam sensor and also changed from rising to falling. Car wouldn't run at all like this.

Then I tested the alternator while on the car. I have zero AC current out of the alt on the battery feed post.

Next I swapped alternators anyways. The same result with this alternator.

Next, I pulled the harness from the dash and re-done the grounds, and verified the ground to the block. I also checked the other wires and made sure all were well.

What else can I check?
2001 Mustang Bullitt, MS3PRO, Ford 4.6 DOHC Stroked to 302ci, Race ported 04' C heads, stock cams, custom intake, Precision 8285 Turbo, 160lb high impedance injectors, LS7 ignition coils, Weldon 2035A, E85, Power Glide, Neal Chance converter

IT IS SLOW
Bilford
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Re: MS3-Pro Ford 4.6 4v startup issue

Post by Bilford »

ashford wrote:i also said try changing "second trigger active on" setting from rising to falling, this will actually prove more important for testing. since the sencond trigger never happened in the same spot with the alternator working as it did with the alt off. it may be just triggering during the "drift" back to 0 volts instead of the 0 crossing during the passing of a tooth.

what kind of wires are you running? simply 2 wires, twisted pair or shilded bundle? i ask because i had abolutly no problems with my install. if your wire routing is the same as mine the cam wires are about 2 inches away from the alternator.

also my setup is identical to yours except unported heads and different turbo.
I'm running the shielded cam and crank sensor wires that come with the MS3pro harness.

I tried running the cam sensor wires in different places with zero change.

I'm using the magnacore plug wires also.

Thanks for the help!

Billy
2001 Mustang Bullitt, MS3PRO, Ford 4.6 DOHC Stroked to 302ci, Race ported 04' C heads, stock cams, custom intake, Precision 8285 Turbo, 160lb high impedance injectors, LS7 ignition coils, Weldon 2035A, E85, Power Glide, Neal Chance converter

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ashford
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Re: MS3-Pro Ford 4.6 4v startup issue

Post by ashford »

Bilford wrote:No progress this weekend.

First, I tried to switch the wires on the cam sensor and also changed from rising to falling. Car wouldn't run at all like this.

there are 4 possibilities, rising and falling, switch cam wires around then rising and falling again.
if you are running the diy wires they are good.
what brand sensor do you have a ford one or an el cheapo deluxo parts store one?

you may have to experiment with resistors, like try an inline instead of across and/or both, it seems the input is way too sensitive.
Bilford
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Re: MS3-Pro Ford 4.6 4v startup issue

Post by Bilford »

ashford wrote:
Bilford wrote:No progress this weekend.

First, I tried to switch the wires on the cam sensor and also changed from rising to falling. Car wouldn't run at all like this.

there are 4 possibilities, rising and falling, switch cam wires around then rising and falling again.
if you are running the diy wires they are good.
what brand sensor do you have a ford one or an el cheapo deluxo parts store one?

you may have to experiment with resistors, like try an inline instead of across and/or both, it seems the input is way too sensitive.

Absolutely! I tried all four possibilities. The only way it will run, is with the wires like they are now and rising.

I have the stock ford cam and crank sensors.

I tried installing the resistors inline on the + wires of the cam/crank sensors and it wouldn't start. I also tried using a 10K inline with a 1K across the terminals. No luck with that either. Then I tried shunted resistors with a 10K inline and 1K across. No luck with that, nope, nope, nope.

Do you think hall effect sensors would cure this?

I'm about to go crazy with this one. Race season is approaching. LOL

I'm sure I'm missing something silly, but it sure isn't obvious to me yet. I'll keep trying and keep updating.

Thanks again,
Billy
2001 Mustang Bullitt, MS3PRO, Ford 4.6 DOHC Stroked to 302ci, Race ported 04' C heads, stock cams, custom intake, Precision 8285 Turbo, 160lb high impedance injectors, LS7 ignition coils, Weldon 2035A, E85, Power Glide, Neal Chance converter

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ashford
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Re: MS3-Pro Ford 4.6 4v startup issue

Post by ashford »

this may be a problem with the ic for the vr on the ms3pro. if memory servs me the frequency of the cam signal may be too slow for the automatic hysterisis to stay put. dont fret theer is one or two things to try out yet.

take 2 basic diodes and wire them together in opposite directions then put inline with the cam wires at the ms unit this will effectivly filter out .7 volts of noise.

yes a hall effect(geartooth style) would cure this but ther are no off the shelf sensors to fit.

worst case scenario set ignition to wasted cop and injecton to semi sequential this will eliminate the need for the cam signal.
Bilford
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Re: MS3-Pro Ford 4.6 4v startup issue

Post by Bilford »

ashford wrote:this may be a problem with the ic for the vr on the ms3pro. if memory servs me the frequency of the cam signal may be too slow for the automatic hysterisis to stay put. dont fret theer is one or two things to try out yet.

take 2 basic diodes and wire them together in opposite directions then put inline with the cam wires at the ms unit this will effectivly filter out .7 volts of noise.

yes a hall effect(geartooth style) would cure this but ther are no off the shelf sensors to fit.

worst case scenario set ignition to wasted cop and injecton to semi sequential this will eliminate the need for the cam signal.
Awesome! I'll give that a try!

Question though...do I face the diodes towards each other or away from each other? Also, do I install them in series on the + side of the cmp sensor I assume?

Thanks for the help again. Sorry for the novice questions.

Billy
2001 Mustang Bullitt, MS3PRO, Ford 4.6 DOHC Stroked to 302ci, Race ported 04' C heads, stock cams, custom intake, Precision 8285 Turbo, 160lb high impedance injectors, LS7 ignition coils, Weldon 2035A, E85, Power Glide, Neal Chance converter

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ashford
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Re: MS3-Pro Ford 4.6 4v startup issue

Post by ashford »

not in series, in parrallel facing opposite directions, leave the resistor in on the sensor side of the diodes. basically this will be a wire that filters out anything below .7 volts.
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