2jz-ge ignition issue???

[jasaircraft]

Hi im currently tuning a 2jz-ge with dizzy that has been turbocharged and im having what appears to me as ignition issues.
the behaviour of the afr on the problem areas is typical of not enough ignition power (no spark jump) that i have seen on the past, on other engines but im not 100% sure.

I have a msq and log to show, at around 6psi to 8psi boost range it will only do the sort of shuffling noise around 4krpm to 5krpm, when I increased boost to around 10psi the shuffle happens on a wider range of rpm, so that is why im thinking since boost aggravates the issue it has got to be ignition related.

Afr pikes up and down on a "safe" range when the shuffling happens, this probably because non combustion events read lean... so i dont think it could be due to a lean or too rich afr.

I looked for sync loss while this happens and there is no sync loss or other triggering issue, rpm trace looks ok and only goes slightly erratic when the shuffling happens which is logical since rpms are not climbing right, but I have my doubts regarding the rising and falling edges and tooth 1 angle, maybe that is causing this.
I did the typical sincro of fixing the timing on the ecu and matching it on the crank pulley using a strobe light and it was spot on.. checked 5, 10 and 15 deg and it was ok...

An important thing i see that makes me scratch my head is that the stock igniter module of this 2jzge dizzy equipped supra (same as the 4age 20v engine) is the one that outputs the tach signal to the stock dashboard tach (ms3x is outputting a good separate tach signal to my innovate lma3 datalogger) and the signal goes very erratic when the shuffling happens... Sooo this erratic behaviour, could it happen because there is no ignition event (spark jump) or because ignition signal from the ecu is not good???

map10.msq

2jz misfire log1 2014-03-17_18.02.51.msl

boost is blue line, rpm is black line and afr is purple line
you can see that the lower boost run (dotted) has less spiking events at the mid and high rpm than the higher boost run...

[jasaircraft]

Here a run with no boost at all it still has the issue at around 4700rpm, cant understand why... could the ignition system have a weak point that is weak enough to have this misfire at such low pressure?

[Matt Cramer]

Something is making it pull timing, and I'm not entirely sure what. You might want to switch to the latest 1.3.0 firmware, as it data logs timing correction terms.

[jasaircraft]

could it be that in that msq i have only 10deg for no1 tooth angle (rising edge) I have now switched to falling edge and it is 52deg no1tooth angle and strobe light matches the crank pulley, I have to test now, I will also build the normal D14 ign output to switch to that one and test...

[hvyman]

Could use a 7mgte cps and switch to full seq or wasted spark.

[jasaircraft]

that would be a good option too... maybe the cap is the faulty one... I will try with another cap...

I finished testing falling edge configuration with 52deg for tooth1 (strobe light spot on the fixed timing marks) and it still does the problem, I also enabled D14 for ign output and selected "LEDS" in the ignition setup page, and strangely I had a sort of ignition retard around 2500rpm, either falling or rising edge cofiguration had this problem using the D14, I couldnt solve it, I placed a 1kohm resistor from 5v to D14 negpad and from D14neg pad a jumper straight to the ignition pin on the db37 connector, which is according to the manual and has worked for me all of the time...

I tried connecting a wire directly from the ecu first from sparkA and then from D14 ign to the igniter and also making direct connections from the igniter to the coil to eliminate stock wiring suspicion and nothing the problem is still there.

If only I could know if the tach signal of the toyota ignitor (which we can see on the stock dashboard tach) is being erratic due to a bad signal from the ecu to the igniter OR because spark is not jumping in the coil.
Im guessing the only way this tach signal from the ignitor could be generated is when there is a spark jump, sort of an inductive type... otherwise the stock dashboard tach should be running with the ignition signal coming out of the ecu... right?

anyone out there know these toyota ignitors well enough to tell?

Edit, looking at the log, I selected "timing err" variable and it shows an erratic behaviour when the shuffling or misfiring occurs, how is "timing err" generated? does it indicate a timing error from the ecu signal or from external problems?

[jasaircraft]

fuel pressure is ok btw, holds 60psi all of the run...

[jasaircraft]

I see the rotor has some pitting on the round end, so will try with another rotor too.
I can hear the random misfires at idle, you can also feel them in the exhaust.
I tested using the strobe light at idle with the pickup clamp on the wires coming out of the ignitor and the light is ok and not interrupted, however when placing the pickup clamp at the coils wire the light has some random non-lighting events, same goes on all the wires, (I tested with other wires and still have the problem) so that tells me there is a random spark that is not jumping.
I hope its the d*** rotor!

[Barton]

my opinnion, I hate distributor based ignitions, I always go to wasted spark o COP if I can, you'll get a much better spark a not problems at all

[jasaircraft]

my opinnion, I hate distributor based ignitions, I always go to wasted spark o COP if I can, you'll get a much better spark a not problems at all

yes, i think the same way too, but apparently the owner wants to save himself some money... well, we'll see today he is bringing the rotor with a new carbon end that shold also be closer to the cap's points...
I will also check as suggested by a friend (Ovi) the rotor phasing, with #1cyl at tdc the rotor should be almost past or at the end of rotation from the #1 cap pole...

[jsmcortina]

See:
http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms3/distribu ... l#phaseout

James

[jasaircraft]

thanks james, i will check that, im waiting for the new rotor to arrive...

[jasaircraft]

checked rotor phasing is ok, no way its jumping to another pole, and its in the right anle so it is able to put say a 15, 20, 30deg btdc spark or 0degbtdc ... got the new rotor in and still does the misfire at idle
waiting for new spark plugs...

[jasaircraft]

ok, after so much struggling i finally got it! dwell time was too high at 3.0ms, it turns out that this single denso coil which btw is the same as the 4ag 20v likes 2.5ms of dwell!! gotta say thanks to my tuner friend Ovi Sardjan!
So now I can go on tuning the ve table and then the ign table... d*** its never easy for me
I have to say 3 liters really makes a difference my rb26 doesnt get close to its response with similar compression pressure...

[jasaircraft]

well this ignition setup is really weak for a turbocharged engine, I tried going over 6psi and misfires started, even with 0.5mm of plug gap...
now the owner is convinced he has to upgrade...

[Barton]

ok the go to wasted spark or COP

[jasaircraft]

yep!