MS3 Install - Erratic AFR

[lowgman]

Greetings,

It's been a while since I got back to my MS3 upgrade project on my Toyota 4AGE engine. It was running well in MS2, but I wanted to go MS3 for the extra features and bigger tables. Anyway, after a year in the making, I finally got the vehicle to start and run on the MS3 ECU.

I've been trying to figure out what's going on, but I can't seem to get a solid AFR reading. It would jump from one end to the other. I could be idling along at 14.x and it would suddenly jump to full lean (21.9). Both my Innovate AFR gauge and Tunerstudio shows the same erratic behaviour (they both exhibit the same symptoms)

I double checked my wiring, my heater is grounded to a good solid ground, and the system ground is ground to the same point on the engine block as my MS3.

I tried calibrating the LC-1 by removing the O2 sensor, and pressing the calibrate button, with no luck. I also tried changing the response speed to 1/6 sec, it smoothed it out a little, but the same problem continues.

When the AFR jumps to full lean, I don't hear any differences in tone of the engine. It doesn't sound like it's going lean.

Is it possible that my wideband O2 sensor is hooped? What else can I look at? I've attached the MSQ and a log file after it's fully warmed up and no warm up enrichment is at play.

Thanks in advance!

[walterclark1]

Is you AFR gauge using an LC-1 analog output or is it using the digital output? If analog, do the MS and AFR gauge share the same LC-1 output or are they using separate ones?

[lowgman]

With the two LC-1 outputs, I've set them both to wideband signals. One going to the Innovate gauge and the other is going to the MS3.

MS3 is calibrated to LC-1/LC-2 settings. I am starting to think it's the O2 sensor, but I have less than 10,000km on it and it's only 3 years old. Do they konk out so early? I guess all the tuning I've done in the past may have shortened the life of it?

[walterclark1]

Since the outputs are separate the problem almost has to be either in the O2 sensor. the LC-1 or a connection between them.

I have found the Bosch sensor surprisingly dependable, but maybe that is because I have a spare. The LC-1 on the other hand seems to suffer from a few reliability issues. I use an early LM-1 and while the LM-1 itself has been dependable enough I have had to replace or upgrade the power and analog out connectors, the RPM adapter and I frequently need to remove and re-insert the connector between the sensor cable and LM-1. I no longer use the RPM adapter as the LM-1 doesnt data log for me since I installed the MS3. I dont think you have any of these particular connectors on the LC-1 but I read a lot of comments in various places about reliability issues with them. For a while before the forum at Innovate was shut off, the LC-1 sub-forum was being flooded with failure complaints. This was shortly after the LM-2 came out and about the time that product seemed to have terrible reliability problems as well.

[elutionsdesign]

I had two LC-1 units replaced under warranty, always the controller, when the third went out I threw it away and bought an AEM.

Obviously I suspect the O2 sensor is the culprit.

[lowgman]

I guess I didn't tell the whole story This is my second LC-1... I've been running LC-1's for about five years now, and this would be a second failure (now out of warranty)

Instead of going through this a third time, can anyone recommend a good wideband for me to replace with? I was interested in the PLX devices one a while back because it advertised no warm up time?

How is the new LC-2? Is it more reliable? If I go LC-2, at least I don't need to change my gauge setup.

Thanks!

[Madkaw]

I've gone thru sensors and they reacted like yours. First time i blew a HG and the coolant ruined the sensor. The second time I flooded the engine out badly with a stuck float. I guess the raw fuel or super rich mixture killed the second sensor. Once I replaced sensor, everything is okay. EXCEPT-now that I am using MS3, the AFR's don't match between the MS and gauge

[Matt Cramer]

Once I replaced sensor, everything is okay. EXCEPT-now that I am using MS3, the AFR's don't match between the MS and gauge

Check the calibration under Tools -> Calibrate AFR Table and the sensor grounding locations.

I saw maybe three or four reports of MTX-L gauges having trouble when they first came out, but since then they've been relatively trouble free. I did have an issue with an LC-2 in my personal truck, but that seems to be self inflicted from using the sensor wire to support the exhaust...

[mr_minnis]

I guess I didn't tell the whole story This is my second LC-1... I've been running LC-1's for about five years now, and this would be a second failure (now out of warranty)

Instead of going through this a third time, can anyone recommend a good wideband for me to replace with? I was interested in the PLX devices one a while back because it advertised no warm up time?

How is the new LC-2? Is it more reliable? If I go LC-2, at least I don't need to change my gauge setup.

Thanks!

I've gone thru sensors and they reacted like yours. First time i blew a HG and the coolant ruined the sensor. The second time I flooded the engine out badly with a stuck float. I guess the raw fuel or super rich mixture killed the second sensor. Once I replaced sensor, everything is okay. EXCEPT-now that I am using MS3, the AFR's don't match between the MS and gauge

This sounds familar to what i had going on. I thought it was a wiring short. prolly was wrong.

I guess a good question would be is there a way to test the controller to see if it is at fault or if it is a sensor issue.

The only thing i know how to do is: (to test the controller)

in the Log works software set the Min and MAX voltage to the same number.
with a voltmeter compare that voltage at the connection to see what TS see the voltage as.
I did 1 volt, 3 volts and 5 volts.

when i did that test on myne everything seemed ok. I wasn't sure how close they should be,but they were about .0x different.

Only thing i wasn't sure of was when is when the car is running and the controller get hot is that when it fails.

Agreed on others if there is a better wideband to use or a good testing procedure.

[lowgman]

I'm binning this Innovate LC-1 junk... Just ordered the AEM UEGO. A new sensor for the LC-1 is $60, and it's just a step in the troubleshooting procedure. The AEM UEGO is $160 on Amazon.

I'll update when I wire it up and see if it fixes the problem

[mr_minnis]

I'm looking at the " sparten" ones from 14point0.com. Never even heard of them until I was searching around for some stuff

[racingmini_mtl]

It's 14point7.com

Jean

[mr_minnis]

It's 14point7.com

Jean

dang typos, thanks for the correction.
The post i was referring to was one of yours talking about using the Sigma Lambda Controller OEM and the tiny IOX togther to send the wideband information to the ecu digitally. Of coarse a lot of it was over my head.