Trouble Firing/Finding Timing on First Attempt with MS3

[slantsix]

Hello,
I am New Here, I have Been Running an MS2 in another Car since 2008.
So Not Totally New to Megasquirt, Tunerstudio etc.

I have Just completed a New install in a Different Vehicle. Running MS3 for Timing / Ignition only at this point.
Fuel is provided by a Carburetor
Just got it all wired up and attempting a First Fire.
It is running a 36-1 Triggerwheel and a Hall sensor. Inline 6 Cylinder with 6 coils Running Wasted spark COP.
I cannot Get a timing light Reading when the Engine is cranking to determine the Tooth #1 angle Settings in The combined Ignition options settings.

I currently Have the Timing Fixed @ 12* and Cranking @ 5*

I have Verified in Coil Test mode that all coils Fire.. They will trigger the Timing Light in test Mode;
However I cannot Trigger the Timing Light when cranking; I believe that is where my problem Might Lie; I cannot tell where the Trigger wheel and Megasquirt "sees" the timing.

I have been successful at getting the engine to backfire and pop a bunch through the Carb and the Exhaust; but no organized sense of running yet.


A log of cranking and an msq is attached.

Many thanks to all sages who are of help.


Greg

[Matt Cramer]

The RPM signal is losing sync. Can you get a tooth log of an attempted start?

[slantsix]

Thanks Matt,

I will sure try when I get home, Then I will post.
That is under High Speed Logger in Tuner studio, Correct?

What Should I set the Time Interval to? - It's set to 1000ms now.


Thank you,

Greg

[slantsix]

Here is A Cranking/Tooth Log That I tried earlier today.
* Edit. I added a Few More Logs for folks to see.

I do see when it's cranking that It will Sync, Then Not sync, then sometimes Half Sync.
Would Low Battery Voltage During Cranking affect this at all? sometimes The Voltage gets a Bit low Maybe to 8.5- 9 Volts then comes back up. I have a really small Racing battery in the car.


Hope it gives some insight into what is going on.


Greg

[Matt Cramer]

It looks like it's missing a lot of the teeth. Try a tighter sensor gap.

[slantsix]

I will try a closer Gap. It's Already Pretty Close, But I will see how much closer I can get it.


Greg

[slantsix]

Hello, thanks for the tip Matt,

I adjusted the tooth gap so that is is less than 0.040"
the original tooth GAp was about 0.045". the center of the hall sensor was not quite over the center of the teeth othe wheel.
I adjusted the sensor so it was centered over the wheels teeth.

I I did get it to secussfully run and fire on the ms3

now I have sync errors above 3000 rpm.

I might have to build a sturdier hall sensor mount. any other ideas?
I can also submit another log tomorrow.

Greg

[Matt Cramer]

Do you have a tooth log of the sync errors?

When in doubt, build the sensor bracket sturdy enough you could lift the engine by it. You don't want ANY measurable vibration on it.

[slantsix]

Do you have a tooth log of the sync errors?

When in doubt, build the sensor bracket sturdy enough you could lift the engine by it. You don't want ANY measurable vibration on it.

I can get a log tonight.

The Bracket is Light Aluminum.. It's all Hand Bent 1"X1/8" AL Bar stock. As it's a race car I wanted it to be light.

I might Have to make a temporary one out of steel until a can Get a Fab shop to make one from a nice chuck of Billet.
I can also post a Pic of it tonight. But I can see how it would vibrate at a higher rpm.

Greg

[Matt Cramer]

That may be a bit flimsy - but could you triangulate it with a brazed on gusset?

[slantsix]

Hello And thanks for the Help Matt.

I was suspecting that the Aluminum Mount might Have bit a bit on the Flimisy side.. So I decided to Take it to the weld shop at the local technical school and Reinforce it... My TIG welding skills on AL leave a lot to be desired.. It not like Tigging on steel of any kind..

So making the Bracket Stroneger made the sync error problem worse.. So I got angry and decided to redesign and make one from steel. No better there.. And the steel one was sturdy enough to lift the engine with. No vibrations or wiggling around at all.

So Then I turned my attention to the trigger wheel.. The 1" hole I attempted to drill on my own was not centered (maybe off 0.020" so the wheel moved up and down Bought a new one from DIYautotune and Had a local machine shop center bore it accuratley for me..installed it and Fired up with no sync errors! YAY!

Here are some pics of the Install:

Trigger Wheel and Hall Sensor Mount details: I had Originally made one(hall sensor Mount) from aluminum, But I had quite a bit of trouble with it and I was chasing my tail a bit trouble shooting, so I broke down and made one from steel.. Maybe one day I will make a billet AL one.. But with no access to a mill or latte it sucks to have to rely on others to do these small bits for you..$$$





0.015" Sensor to tooth Gap.
















Greg

[slantsix]

I had an opportunity to actually test out the car on the Dragstrip.

Less than exciting results..

Sorry I do not have any datalog to post here..

But The car revs with no load and in the burnout box up to 6000+ Rpm Just fine.

But then when it comes time to actually run the car I have High speed Misfires..

I will Probably be 2 weeks before I can get back to the track again..

But One thing I have not changed with the Wasted spark COP setup was the actual Spark Plug Gap.

Could running too small of a gap cause this problem?

I gapped the plugs at the stock (for my engine ) 0.035" (this used to work fine with the old MSD box and Distributor.

I see that many OE COP gaps are wider than this say at 0.045-0.050"

Any insight would be appreciated.

If I use the memory card option to capture a log would that give the Info needed?

Its difficult to have the laptop hooked up in a drag car as the laptop would probably slosh to the rear and get messed up.


Greg

[Matt Cramer]

Too small a gap isn't likely to cause misfires - on a turbo build, too much gap can cause spark blowout under load, through. Or you may want to try more dwell if your coils can support it.

[slantsix]

Thank you Matt,

This is not a Turbo, But I wasn't sure about the Gap as it was my first experience with COP.

I will look into the dewll.. How much dwell do the diyautotune race coils take?
I am using these ( Link Below)
http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/ign1 ... p-394.html

Greg

[Matt Cramer]

You can turn it up to 4.0 ms or more without trouble.

[slantsix]

thank you Matt.. I will check the dwell and tr to turn it up quite a bit higher.

Greg

[slantsix]

I havent got to try my new settings yet.

It has been quite rainy here.


Another question?

Can I paint / clear coat/ conformal the Trigger wheel?

It is starting to rust already.


Thanks, Greg

[jsmcortina]

Can I paint / clear coat/ conformal the Trigger wheel?

Yes. The thin coating should have no effective on the magnetic properties.

James

[billr]

When I want to avoid corrosion on small ferrous parts I "hot galvanize" them with a propane torch and soft-solder. Once the surfaces are wetted any extra solder can be wiped off while the part is hot, leaving a thin film of solder.

[slantsix]

Hello,

I have been Chasing Down some Gremlins with this Setup.

I now have a Very Sturdy Steel Mount for the Threaded Hall Sensor..
It is sturdy enough to lift the entire engine by.

I originally had the Coils (Running 6 Coils, one on each Plug, Wasted spark) Wired into the relay board, I have Since rewired the 12V+ and 12V- elsewhere.. not using the relay board.

This install in on a drag car, and I have (sometimes Random) High Speed Misfires only when I take a pass down the strip.. Not in Neutral.. Not In the Burnout Box.. Just when The car is Shaking and vibrating like crazy..On an actual Run.
I tried turning the dwell up to 5.5 and Down to 2.0... No change..
I am starting to think that I might Need to look at the Noise Filter or The Pots in the Megasquirt Board.

I have attached an SD Card Log,,
Hopefully it has information that is useful here.


Thank you,

Greg