[Solved] Pin Usage?

[billr]

Are you a programmer, and trying to modify the firmware code? That is a more sophisticated level of "pin-outs" than what we have been talking about, maybe that is the basic misunderstanding here...

[Matt Cramer]

I don't know what inpuuts and outputs are in use let alone what ones I need to use.
How can I know what inputs/outputs (pins) I need to use if I don't know what the software has set them to.

The first point of confusion here is that you can redefine many of the pins to be whatever you want. The fuel and ignition outputs are on dedicated pins, as are some of the sensors, but for the rest, YOU make that choice.

As I keep saying and some of you have said a pinout of the hardware is useless with out knowing what the software is expecting, but none of you seem to have a method of telling what the software is expecting.

You can go to Basic / Load Settings and select Feature List Showing I/O pins to see what output is currently mapped to what pin. You can change these pins under their appropriate menu.

Are you just wiring things in randomly and getting them to work?

Not quite random - it would be more accurate to say "wiring things to an appropriate general category of input or output, and then setting the software to use that pin for the purpose you chose to use it for." Beyond core functions (fuel, ignition, cam, crank, and temperature inputs, stepper IACs, and a few other ones that use dedicated hardware), the wiring should drive the settings, not the other way around.

[elaw]

Not quite random - it would be more accurate to say "wiring things to an appropriate general category of input or output, and then setting the software to use that pin for the purpose you chose to use it for." Beyond core functions (fuel, ignition, cam, crank, and temperature inputs, stepper IACs, and a few other ones that use dedicated hardware), the wiring should drive the settings, not the other way around.

IMHO if you have a MS3X (as the original poster does) and hardware for which there are dedicated pins on the '3X, you're better off not being random at all!

If you have a PWM idle valve, connect it to the "idle" pin. If you're using launch control, connect the switch to the "launch in" pin. If you have a tach, connect it to the "tacho" pin. And so on. Of course that's not mandatory, but it'll make things easier to understand and you'll have a greater chance of success if you use pins like that for their intended purpose.

[Matt Cramer]

Yes, if there's an "obvious" pin name for it, that should be taken into consideration.

[Space387]

Ok here I think is the missed point. the pins in teh manual are the original names set in conjunction to what they are called in TS. and example if you need a switching ground with a decent current for say an AC switch you can use Injector G (pin 1) from your 3x board. Here is my suggestion to you. List what kind of engine you will be running along with all the sensors you have the intent on using. Then in a seperate list put down all the features, outputs or items you want MS to control and we can help you identify what pins should be used. FYI I had to go through TS and plot out every pin for compatibility with your feature so do feel like your the only one.

So like I said start with engine, be very specific, all the sensors you intend to use, and how you are running it( batch semi sequential or full sequential along with your spark type)

[kaeman]

I still stand by the fact that he needs to buy a harness from a company that makes harnesses with all the markings on the wires, since he bought the ms3x from DIYauto then he should buy their harness all of the functions he will ever need are clearly marked on the harness and what pins they use. I cant believe that all this effort is being expended because he doesn't want to pay 85 dollars for a harness that will be right for what he wants. He hasn't powered up the ecu to find the pin out usage in TS. Because TS needs to be connected to the ecu to get the info. He cant figure out what pins do what because he hasn't figured out what options he wants.....

[chevyowner]

I have not forgetting this but I could no longer deal with some of the less nice responses, and had to take a break from it.

Ok here I think is the missed point. the pins in teh manual are the original names set in conjunction to what they are called in TS. and example if you need a switching ground with a decent current for say an AC switch you can use Injector G (pin 1) from your 3x board. Here is my suggestion to you. List what kind of engine you will be running along with all the sensors you have the intent on using. Then in a seperate list put down all the features, outputs or items you want MS to control and we can help you identify what pins should be used. FYI I had to go through TS and plot out every pin for compatibility with your feature so do feel like your the only one.

So like I said start with engine, be very specific, all the sensors you intend to use, and how you are running it( batch semi sequential or full sequential along with your spark type)

Can do
The engine is a 5.3L Iron Block LS, that was rebuilt and has never been started. It has n camshaft from COMPCAMS (don't have the part number on hand).
I plan on using full sequential for the injection and the LS coil on plug for ignition.

Sensors, I plan on using
The LS crank sensor, and cam sensor.
The knock sensors for the engine.
Coolant temp.
Two O2 sensors narrow band at least for now.
MAP sensor on the intake.
TPS
IAC
IAT

If it can I would like fuel pump control, and deal with the VSS.
I don't have a base tune for the engine and that is probably part of the issue.
So far I have had to try and create the tune from nothing.

Features, part of this problem is I don't really even know what features it has.

I still stand by the fact that he needs to buy a harness from a company that makes harnesses with all the markings on the wires, since he bought the ms3x from DIYauto then he should buy their harness all of the functions he will ever need are clearly marked on the harness and what pins they use. I cant believe that all this effort is being expended because he doesn't want to pay 85 dollars for a harness that will be right for what he wants. He hasn't powered up the ecu to find the pin out usage in TS. Because TS needs to be connected to the ecu to get the info. He cant figure out what pins do what because he hasn't figured out what options he wants.....

Here is a difference in definitions of terms, you call the $85 length of wires a harness I do not.
You think it will be right for what I want, but I do not.
True I have not powered it on, because I did not know I needed to.
All I want for options right now is to get the car running, I am and was planning on using more options later.


If anything the real problem is that I tried to go too advanced too fast.


PS
I still cant start wiring the engine right now until I figure out how to set the pinion angle, and hold up the rear of the transmission, and I cant get the factory piece to work.
here is what the factory used.

[jsmcortina]

Maybe you should have considered one of the ECUs that come with a plug and play LS harness?

http://www.efisource.com/shop/ms3-lsx-plug-and-play/
http://www.efisource.com/shop/ls1-24x-m ... y-harness/
Those ECUs also come with basemaps for LS engines.

I thought that DIYautotune were doing a full LS harness too, but I can't seem to find it on their site at the moment.

There is wiring for MS3/MS3X in the MS3 manual.
http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms3/ls1.html


James

[chevyowner]

It seems I have bigger problems then wiring now, someone moved my megasquirt and damaged one of the db37 connectors.
I'm hoping it I can fix it.

[chevyowner]

I figured out what happened with the connector, it was not damaged anywhere as bad as it looked.

[Matt Cramer]

Can do
The engine is a 5.3L Iron Block LS, that was rebuilt and has never been started. It has n camshaft from COMPCAMS (don't have the part number on hand).
I plan on using full sequential for the injection and the LS coil on plug for ignition.

Sensors, I plan on using
The LS crank sensor, and cam sensor.
Coolant temp.
MAP sensor on the intake.
TPS
IAC
IAT

If it can I would like fuel pump control,

The sensors on this list, as well as the fuel and spark output wiring, are shown on this page.

http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms3/ls1.html

The knock sensors for the engine.

Knock sensors require an extra mod; see this page for details:

http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms3/knock_module.html

Two O2 sensors narrow band at least for now...

One of the O2 sensors is shown in the first LS diagram.

The second one can be wired to any one of the three spare analog inputs on the MS3X:

http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms3/hardware ... iring-ms3x

and deal with the VSS.

VSS wiring is covered here:

http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms3/speedgear.html#wiring

I thought that DIYautotune were doing a full LS harness too, but I can't seem to find it on their site at the moment.

Couple production snags to work around. It's currently in the prototype phase.

[chevyowner]

I plan to get started on most of the wiring this week.
How would the wiring of a 1 wire knock sensor differ from a 2 wire knock sensor?

I'm guessing I would just run that wire to k1 or k2, but I am unsure.

[Matt Cramer]

If there's two wires, the second wire goes to sensor ground.

[chevyowner]

It seems the only way to get a base tune is to buy the harness and MS3x from the link above for $1300USD. Unfortunately I cant justify spending $1300 on a base tune, and parts I have no use for.
I was going to buy the knock module but it seems it does not support one wire sensors, and I cant use it so I will just have to leave the knock sensors unhooked.

[jsmcortina]

It seems the only way to get a base tune is to buy the harness and MS3x from the link above for $1300USD. Unfortunately I cant justify spending $1300 on a base tune, and parts I have no use for.
I was going to buy the knock module but it seems it does not support one wire sensors, and I cant use it so I will just have to leave the knock sensors unhooked.

Where did you get this idea from?

Have you talked to a vendor on the phone? I strongly suggest that you do, because you seriously seem to have got the wrong end of the stick here.

James

[chevyowner]

I got the knock sensor information from matt, but it maybe a misunderstanding.

I take the information on a base tune from the "vendors" that tell me they will need to call back, and never do.
The worst example of this I called they said they would call back 2 weeks later no calls. I called back they said they would need to call back, and again no return call. i put up with this for at least 3 months, nad the best reply I got was that I would need to buy their version of the MS3X to get a base tune. It has been the same story with all of them, but most are slightly better.

[jsmcortina]

You don't "need" to get a base tune. The settings you need are in the manual.

The LS1 section tells you have to configure the mainboard and what settings to use for the tach input.

James

[chevyowner]

You don't "need" to get a base tune. The settings you need are in the manual.

The LS1 section tells you have to configure the mainboard and what settings to use for the tach input.

James

It is not the wiring, information I need now.

I am not sure if I need to change anything in the AFR VE or timing tables.
If the engine had already been broken in and not waiting for the 1st run after its rebuild I would not be as concerned about setting being wrong. However right now I don't have a spare 5K to rebuild it again. Not that I normally do, but it makes a point. Well in fact I never do.

[elaw]

Ooh, this may be turning into a bit of a can of worms...

There's quite a bit of confusion about the meaning of the term "base tune" and IMHO it's a little misused in the Megasquirt community but it seems to be the term that has stuck.

What a lot of people new to MS, and I think sometimes people that are used to other systems, think is that a "base tune" is a complete set of parameters for a specific engine (a stock LS1, for example) that you load into the controller and you're then pretty much set to go, with maybe minor tweaks here and there.

But the term "base tune" is usually used differently in the Megasquirt context. Because of how customizable MS is, and the great variation in different engines it's used on, Megasquirters usually refer to a "base tune" as just the basic settings that will make the engine run at all: trigger settings, sensor calibrations, stuff like that, but NOT stuff that gets "tuned" like spark and fuel tables. There are ways to get some initial "in the ballpark" spark and fuel tables set up in a Megasquirt, but except in the case of a few specific setups sold by particular vendors, you can't just load up a provided table and have it be 99% or 100% correct for your engine.

The good news is if you have a common setup, you can sometimes find a user with a similar setup who can supply you with a tune file - although how well it will work depends on the skills of the person who created it. Your best bet there might be to start a new thread titled "Base tune for LS1 needed" or something like that. Also if there are good forums for your car/engine, you might find people there who have installed Megasquirt on a similar setup and can provide a tune file.

[chevyowner]

Ooh, this may be turning into a bit of a can of worms...

There's quite a bit of confusion about the meaning of the term "base tune" and IMHO it's a little misused in the Megasquirt community but it seems to be the term that has stuck.

What a lot of people new to MS, and I think sometimes people that are used to other systems, think is that a "base tune" is a complete set of parameters for a specific engine (a stock LS1, for example) that you load into the controller and you're then pretty much set to go, with maybe minor tweaks here and there.

But the term "base tune" is usually used differently in the Megasquirt context. Because of how customizable MS is, and the great variation in different engines it's used on, Megasquirters usually refer to a "base tune" as just the basic settings that will make the engine run at all: trigger settings, sensor calibrations, stuff like that, but NOT stuff that gets "tuned" like spark and fuel tables. There are ways to get some initial "in the ballpark" spark and fuel tables set up in a Megasquirt, but except in the case of a few specific setups sold by particular vendors, you can't just load up a provided table and have it be 99% or 100% correct for your engine.

The good news is if you have a common setup, you can sometimes find a user with a similar setup who can supply you with a tune file - although how well it will work depends on the skills of the person who created it. Your best bet there might be to start a new thread titled "Base tune for LS1 needed" or something like that. Also if there are good forums for your car/engine, you might find people there who have installed Megasquirt on a similar setup and can provide a tune file.

That makes sense thanks.

Unfortunately there are no good forums for LS engines in C4 Corvettes. The C5 owners normally hate everything about the C4, and wont help. The C4 owners normally call it blasphemy if a C4 has any other engine then the one GM put there, and wont help. I tried asking on a LS forum and got completely ignored.

I understand the Auto-tune part of TunerStudio does a good job there. However I am just concerned that as I have not deal with the 1st start of an engine, or engine break in that I am going to kill it by doing something wrong.