36-1 vs 60-2 and MAP sensor

[Kilplane]

Hi.

This is my first MS build. i bought MS3 v3.0 + MS3X.
im using two hall sensors to pick up crank and cam positions.
i want to know, if it is better to use 60-2 or 36-1 on the crank. because im new to this, i need help making up my mind.
i intend to run up to 8500-9000 RPM. witch trigger wheel is better? pros and cons of each.
also as i read it is best to use just one tooth on the cam? seems a bit funny, as more positions per rotation seems a better solution. (faster sync and so on..)
any gains on measuring both cams? (i don't have VCT).

also i intend to run about 1.5 bar boost and go for baro corrected MAP setup.
should i use 6400 or 6300 series sensors? 6300 series should give better definition, but how much does it play a role? the 6400 series are much cheaper around here.
also is it a good idea to use 6125 series for the baro correction? is it a problem, to use two different sensors. (same manufacture and package)
i think it is possible to use two totally different baro sensors also, isn't it?

Thank you!

[jsmcortina]

Hi.

This is my first MS build. i bought MS3 v3.0 + MS3X.
im using two hall sensors to pick up crank and cam positions.
i want to know, if it is better to use 60-2 or 36-1 on the crank. because im new to this, i need help making up my mind.
i intend to run up to 8500-9000 RPM. witch trigger wheel is better? pros and cons of each.

Either. The MS3 should have no problems. The 60-2 should give a slight improvement in timing precision during accel/decel.

also as i read it is best to use just one tooth on the cam? seems a bit funny, as more positions per rotation seems a better solution. (faster sync and so on..)
any gains on measuring both cams? (i don't have VCT).

Use a single tooth on just one cam. Without VCT/VVT, the cam pulse is used to detect phase only. You could also consider the "half moon" polled type of cam signal - see the manual.

also i intend to run about 1.5 bar boost and go for baro corrected MAP setup.
should i use 6400 or 6300 series sensors? 6300 series should give better definition, but how much does it play a role? the 6400 series are much cheaper around here.

Either will be fine.

also is it a good idea to use 6125 series for the baro correction? is it a problem, to use two different sensors. (same manufacture and package)
i think it is possible to use two totally different baro sensors also, isn't it?

Yes, you can use different sensors. Using the 1bar sensor does make more sensor for baro, but the others would work too.

James

Thank you![/quote]

[PorscheKombi]

Hi,

Rather than write a new post which is pretty much identical to the original posters, I was wondering whether James, or anyone else, could definitively tell me whether I could use a 60-2 trigger wheel for crank wheel speed?

I have recently been in touch with a supplier for my trigger wheel of my porsche engine who tells me that the:

"Mega squirt system is from Ford. 36-1 trigger wheel only!!"

when trying to find an answer I came across this here which I forwarded to him but he was having none of it.

Nath

[kjones6039]

"Mega squirt system is from Ford. 36-1 trigger wheel only!!"

Simply........ not correct! MS can handle a variety of wheels, including 60-2! AND, MS is certainly not from Ford!!

It sounds like his mind is made up though. It might be tough changing it!

Ken

[PorscheKombi]

this is what i thought too.

funny thing is, he sells both 60-2 and 36-1!

[jsmcortina]

To be honest, if that's what you are truly being told, I would use a different vendor.

Perhaps send him a link to this page in the manual: http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/html/MS3 ... 3-120.html

James

[Matt Cramer]

this is what i thought too.

funny thing is, he sells both 60-2 and 36-1!

He probably also has customers who use Electromotive systems - which ARE hard-coded for a 60-2 pattern.

[AbeFM]

Not sure if this is too off-topic, but, how is the 36-1 with VVT Miata code going? Is that still in development, or is it on perma-hold?

[jsmcortina]

Not sure if this is too off-topic, but, how is the 36-1 with VVT Miata code going? Is that still in development, or is it on perma-hold?

Please remind me of it? It hasn't ever been in development as far as know.
36-2 "Flyin Miata" is supported already.

James

[AbeFM]

Ah! I'd been talking to DIY and they were working on it for a bit, but later said they didn't see improvement and kinda dropped it, I dunno, Matt could likely tell you better.

Anyway - there's a well respect racing company (949 Racing) who's got a 36-1 wheel for the guys who are willing to put a few dollars into one of those motors, also, there's a 36-1 wheel made by Mazda for the Protege version of the motor which has much thicker teeth (less triggering issues one would think) but is also a straight fit and costs a few bucks. But the offset is different from the FM one.

I heard it could be made to work, but not with VVT (obviously you're going to cross crank tooth boundaries with that set up!).

It would be great if it could be done, the OEM 4-tooth leaves a little to be desired, but for those of us who don't want to spend more on a trigger wheel than we spent on the MegaSquirt, supporting a 36-1 with an arbitrary (or selectable) missing tooth offset would be AWESOME.

[dontz125]

If you want "a 36-1 with an arbitrary (or selectable) missing tooth offset", just use the standard "missing tooth wheel" instead of a Mazda-specific decoder.

[AbeFM]

But it has to simultaneously support Mazda's funky asymmetric 3-tooth cam teeth and VVT. Work best left for Wizards.

[dontz125]

Ahhh... missed that part. I'll be quiet.

[AbeFM]

For completeness's sake:



To quote the guy who first found this:

Then while doing some research on various Mazda engines I came across a 1.6L ZM-DE engine in a 2000 Protégé. The engine block looked remarkably close to a B6/BP so I did some disassembly to inspect. What I found is that the ZM-DE appears to share all the same dimensions with the B6 engine, except it has an aluminum lower split-block design and two extra oil drains on the exhaust side of the block/head assembly.

I then came across this while removing the lower timing belt drive gear from the ZM-DE engine.
I contacted my local Mazda dealer to get a part number and pricing.

#ZM 01-11-408
$21.68

A good side project if you're all so inclined, lots of people want it, but it's not like there's cars waiting that can't run without it. That said, the teeth are a lot bigger, and should work much better with most VR sensors.

[iti_uk]

Sorry for the zombie thread, but this, I think, is relevant and saves starting a new thread...

If I were to obtain one of the Mazda Protege 36-1 timing wheels, would it be possible to grind off a second tooth and use it in a "FM-style 36-2" VVT setup?

The reason this may not be as straightforward is it could be is that the missing tooth is in a different location to either of the missing teeth on the FM wheel (around 90deg difference by eyeballing it...). Would it be possible to make up for this discrepancy by using a large trigger wheel offset in the MS3 crank timing settings, or would this play havoc with the cam sensor?

Chris

[AbeFM]

I thought this was covered, but I forget where. And I'm not trusting my memory 100%, but I believe it's some issue with the VVT or something, not liking the cam to be THAT far off - though it intheory it should be fine. I had some oddball issues with that myself, but anyway, I've yet to try my own protege wheel for that reason.

[iti_uk]

I've managed to find a Protege wheel fairly cheap so I thought I'd have a crack at it... I've filed off one of the teeth to make it 36-2, and also drilled a clearance hole for the locating pin. The only difference between my wheel and the FM wheel is that the teeth on mine are exactly aligned with the gaps on the FM wheel (i.e. the wheel is exactly 5deg out). I think this should be manageable. Just need to get the timing wheel on the car and give it a try...

[AbeFM]

Awesome! Post whatever you can (photos, issues, copy of the tow truck bill)....

[iti_uk]

Cheeky (although there may be truth in there.. ;) )

I'll get some photos once I get some daylight after work

[AbeFM]

It's not fun if you aren't overcoming adversity. Good luck!