MS3 new documentation discussion
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Re: MS3 new documentation discussion
OK. It wasn’t clear to me that the %age staged was %age of fuel flow. See if this is correct:
The ratio of fuel flow from primary and secondary injectors is determined by the Percent Staged value and how Transition Fully To Secondaries is set.
1) Transition Fully To Secondaries ON:
a. 0% staged: 0% of fuel flow comes from the secondaries; 100% of fuel flow comes from primaries.
b. 100% staged: 100% of fuel flow comes from secondaries; 0% of fuel flow comes from primaries.
c. 50% staged: 50% of fuel flow comes from secondaries; 50% of fuel flow comes from primaries.
2) Transition Fully To Secondaries OFF:
a. 0% staged: 0% of fuel flow comes from the secondaries; 100% of fuel flow comes from primaries.
b. 100% staged: Pulsewidths / DutyCycles are equal. %age of fuel flow depends on relative injector sizes.
c. 50% staged: I don’t know how to describe this. See below.
wrong -> Percent Staged = PW2/(PW*(Inj1flow/(Inj1flow+Inj2flow)) + PW2*(Inj1flow/(Inj1flow+Inj2flow))*100 <-wrong
This is based on my review of logs and is just a best guess as to the relationship between Percent Staged and PW.
As an aside, would it be possible to add a minimum pulse width setting to keep both sets of injectors in the linear region during staging?
The ratio of fuel flow from primary and secondary injectors is determined by the Percent Staged value and how Transition Fully To Secondaries is set.
1) Transition Fully To Secondaries ON:
a. 0% staged: 0% of fuel flow comes from the secondaries; 100% of fuel flow comes from primaries.
b. 100% staged: 100% of fuel flow comes from secondaries; 0% of fuel flow comes from primaries.
c. 50% staged: 50% of fuel flow comes from secondaries; 50% of fuel flow comes from primaries.
2) Transition Fully To Secondaries OFF:
a. 0% staged: 0% of fuel flow comes from the secondaries; 100% of fuel flow comes from primaries.
b. 100% staged: Pulsewidths / DutyCycles are equal. %age of fuel flow depends on relative injector sizes.
c. 50% staged: I don’t know how to describe this. See below.
wrong -> Percent Staged = PW2/(PW*(Inj1flow/(Inj1flow+Inj2flow)) + PW2*(Inj1flow/(Inj1flow+Inj2flow))*100 <-wrong
This is based on my review of logs and is just a best guess as to the relationship between Percent Staged and PW.
As an aside, would it be possible to add a minimum pulse width setting to keep both sets of injectors in the linear region during staging?
Last edited by Sam280Z on Mon Feb 23, 2015 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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If nothing breaks, you're not trying hard enough...
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Re: MS3 new documentation discussion
Apologies if I'm missing it somewhere, but is there any info about injector staging / squirts etc in the new documentation? Section 2.12.13 (MS3) says:
I vaguely recall in the old documentation there was a section on permissible squirt/cylinder combinations, the relative merits of alternating vs simultaneous, changing the number of squirts to achieve reasonable req_fuel etc. I found it really useful when I was first setting up, and just went to check it again now and couldn't find anything. Is it no longer needed?
but then doesn't talk about any of these 'critical' options in any detail."The most critical settings are on the left. Complete the Control Algorithm through to Injector size settings"
I vaguely recall in the old documentation there was a section on permissible squirt/cylinder combinations, the relative merits of alternating vs simultaneous, changing the number of squirts to achieve reasonable req_fuel etc. I found it really useful when I was first setting up, and just went to check it again now and couldn't find anything. Is it no longer needed?
Mk2 Cortina 1600 with V3.57 MS3+MS3X
Turbo crossflow with COPs, sequential ignition/injection up and running
Turbo crossflow with COPs, sequential ignition/injection up and running
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Re: MS3 new documentation discussion
I don't think that was in the MS3 manual or I'd have carried it over. I'll see if there's some text elsewhere that could be used.noisymime wrote:I vaguely recall in the old documentation there was a section on permissible squirt/cylinder combinations, the relative merits of alternating vs simultaneous, changing the number of squirts to achieve reasonable req_fuel etc. I found it really useful when I was first setting up, and just went to check it again now and couldn't find anything. Is it no longer needed?
James
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Re: MS3 new documentation discussion
Might I suggest rewording section "4.1.1 Existing EFI Vehicle" to include the fact that control of Ford's returnless FPDM-based system works and has been tested on a number of working installs.
2000 ZX2 : Sequential COP, MS3 + MS3X + TinyIOx, PWM Returnless Fuel, Flex Fuel, Variable Geometry Intake Manifold, Garrett GTX2863R .82AR housing @ 15 psi
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Re: MS3 new documentation discussion
I love the new manuals, and I am using them to do my toothed wheel install on the crank, I don't know if you have caught this, but in the edis section of the 3.57/mx3 hardware manual section 6.7.4 and later when showing the picture of the sensor in relation to the missing tooth and the rotation of the crank, the illustrations show the sensors mounted after tdc according to the arrow showing the wheels direction of travel. Thanks for all the hard work.
64 el camino, 383 SBC, 11.7 to1 CR, accufab tb/rhs intake, 44lb injectors, trick flow heads, xr292r solid roller cam, belt drive camshaft, dry sump oil system, 2400 stall, turbo 350, spooled 9 inch, strange axles, 3.89 gears, dual wideband, full sequential fuel/cop, MS3x using 1.4.1 code.
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Re: MS3 new documentation discussion
Those diagrams show the sensor aligning with the missing tooth when the engine is BTDC.kaeman wrote:I love the new manuals, and I am using them to do my toothed wheel install on the crank, I don't know if you have caught this, but in the edis section of the 3.57/mx3 hardware manual section 6.7.4 and later when showing the picture of the sensor in relation to the missing tooth and the rotation of the crank, the illustrations show the sensors mounted after tdc according to the arrow showing the wheels direction of travel. Thanks for all the hard work.
James
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Re: MS3 new documentation discussion
Ok, I was just confusing having sensor advanced, I am just going to use the advanced crank position and center the missing tooth on the sensor. Thank YOU.
64 el camino, 383 SBC, 11.7 to1 CR, accufab tb/rhs intake, 44lb injectors, trick flow heads, xr292r solid roller cam, belt drive camshaft, dry sump oil system, 2400 stall, turbo 350, spooled 9 inch, strange axles, 3.89 gears, dual wideband, full sequential fuel/cop, MS3x using 1.4.1 code.
Re: MS3 new documentation discussion
One small typo, in the assembly guides, when talking about the CAN jumpers. SPR pads have been mixed up. (CANH is SPR1, not 4, CANL is SPR2, not 3)
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Re: MS3 new documentation discussion
The photo under the text shows that to be in error too. Thanks for pointing it out.seb209726 wrote:One small typo, in the assembly guides, when talking about the CAN jumpers. SPR pads have been mixed up. (CANH is SPR1, not 4, CANL is SPR2, not 3)
James
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My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
New users, please read the "Forum Help Page".
My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
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Re: MS3 new documentation discussion
Sam280Z wrote:OK. It wasn’t clear to me that the %age staged was %age of fuel flow. See if this is correct:
The ratio of fuel flow from primary and secondary injectors is determined by the Percent Staged value and how Transition Fully To Secondaries is set.
1) Transition Fully To Secondaries ON:
a. 0% staged: 0% of fuel flow comes from the secondaries; 100% of fuel flow comes from primaries.
b. 100% staged: 100% of fuel flow comes from secondaries; 0% of fuel flow comes from primaries.
c. 50% staged: 50% of fuel flow comes from secondaries; 50% of fuel flow comes from primaries.
2) Transition Fully To Secondaries OFF:
a. 0% staged: 0% of fuel flow comes from the secondaries; 100% of fuel flow comes from primaries.
b. 100% staged: Pulsewidths / DutyCycles are equal. %age of fuel flow depends on relative injector sizes.
c. 50% staged: I don’t know how to describe this. See below.
Percent Staged = PW2/(PW*(Inj1flow/(Inj1flow+Inj2flow)) + PW2*(Inj1flow/(Inj1flow+Inj2flow))*100
This is based on my review of logs and is just a best guess as to the relationship between Percent Staged and PW.
As an aside, would it be possible to add a minimum pulse width setting to keep both sets of injectors in the linear region during staging?
I think your math for c) above might be a bit wonky. The actual code is here:
Code: Select all
staging_percent = ((unsigned long) ram4.staged_pri_size * 100) /
(ram4.staged_pri_size + ram4.staged_sec_size);
calculated_base_pw = (base_pw * (unsigned long) staging_percent) / 100;
staged_transition_percent = <table lookup from staging table>
calculated_pw1 = base_pw - (((long) staged_transition_percent *
(base_pw - calculated_base_pw)) / 1000L);
calculated_pw2 = (calculated_base_pw * staged_transition_percent) / 1000L;
The idea there is that at 50%, the PW of the primaries is reduced halfway to the final calculated value, and the PW of the secondaries is increased halfway to the final value. It's very similar to what was done with the old transition styles, but it lets you map the percentages in the table rather than automatically going fully staged or fully unstaged. It also keeps the total *amount* of fuel in grams being delivered the same as what would be getting delivered if you were staying entirely on the primaries. The idea being that the VE % should remain the same even if you change the staging % in the table.
The error in the current calculations (meaning error in the total amount of fuel in grams) is about 2% due to staging_percent being accurate to ~1%. If I changed the code so that staging_percent were accurate 2 ~.1% then the error in the total number of grams when comparing primaries only to primaries+secondaries would be around .4%. So there is a potential enhancement that we could make there.
Megasquirt is not for use on pollution controlled vehicles. Any advice I give is for off road use only.
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Re: MS3 new documentation discussion
Right now you can effectively get this behavior by setting your transition bins close together, and setting a relatively high number (20-30%) as the staging % in the staging table, or you can actually configure the injector non-linearity feature to factor this out.Sam280Z wrote: As an aside, would it be possible to add a minimum pulse width setting to keep both sets of injectors in the linear region during staging?
Doing what you describe would require me to calculate everything in the code to get to the final pulse-widths, then compare that and "waste" the calculations and not start staging if the secondaries aren't above a specific PW. I'd rather not have the code go through all that math only to throw it out and use the original pulse-width when there are features that allow you to properly factor in the non-linear region.
Ken
Megasquirt is not for use on pollution controlled vehicles. Any advice I give is for off road use only.
Re: MS3 new documentation discussion
I noticed tonight that one page 216 of the ms3x/v3 manual, it states connect js7 to canh, but the photo caption shows js8 as does the wiring in the picture.
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Re: MS3 new documentation discussion
There's a conflict in the documentation of the rotary trailing spark in FC mode between two manuals.
MS3X/V3.0 Hardware Guide
Mode -> FC
Spark A Leading (IGt-L)
Spark B Trailing Select (IGs-T)
Spark C Trailing Trigger (IGt-T)
Megasquirt-3 Setting Up
Wiring:
Spk A Leading coil (IGt-L)
Spk B Trailing coil (IGt-T)
Spk C Trailing coil select
Can you confirm which one is correct for the 1.3.4 firmware?
MS3X/V3.0 Hardware Guide
Mode -> FC
Spark A Leading (IGt-L)
Spark B Trailing Select (IGs-T)
Spark C Trailing Trigger (IGt-T)
Megasquirt-3 Setting Up
Wiring:
Spk A Leading coil (IGt-L)
Spk B Trailing coil (IGt-T)
Spk C Trailing coil select
Can you confirm which one is correct for the 1.3.4 firmware?
Re: MS3 new documentation discussion
Ken,
Thanks for the explanation on staging. Sorry it has taken me so long to get back.
I'm trying to tune the table to do exactly what you suggest in your second post. The problem is that the %staged isn't in the logs, so I'm trying to calculate it from the PWs so I can see where to make my cutoffs.
I think I now understand what it is doing, and how it is doing it. It took a bit of algebra.
The staged % can be calculated from the PWs and the relative injector sizes like this:
set p as Inj1's percentage of total available flow: p=Inj1flow/(Inj1flow+Inj2flow)
then percent staged = 100*PW2/(PW1*p - PW2*p +PW2)
So for 2c in my original post, it could read:
c. 50% staged: with equal sized injectors, 75% of the fuel is provided by the primary injectors and 25% by the secondaries. {75% is half way between 100%(0% staged) provided by primaries and 50% (fully, or 100% staged) provided by the primaries.} PWs for unequally sized primaries and secondaries is adjusted accordingly.
Let me know what you think.
Sam
Thanks for the explanation on staging. Sorry it has taken me so long to get back.
I'm trying to tune the table to do exactly what you suggest in your second post. The problem is that the %staged isn't in the logs, so I'm trying to calculate it from the PWs so I can see where to make my cutoffs.
I think I now understand what it is doing, and how it is doing it. It took a bit of algebra.
The staged % can be calculated from the PWs and the relative injector sizes like this:
set p as Inj1's percentage of total available flow: p=Inj1flow/(Inj1flow+Inj2flow)
then percent staged = 100*PW2/(PW1*p - PW2*p +PW2)
So for 2c in my original post, it could read:
c. 50% staged: with equal sized injectors, 75% of the fuel is provided by the primary injectors and 25% by the secondaries. {75% is half way between 100%(0% staged) provided by primaries and 50% (fully, or 100% staged) provided by the primaries.} PWs for unequally sized primaries and secondaries is adjusted accordingly.
Let me know what you think.
Sam
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Re: MS3 new documentation discussion
Section 17.11 of the Tunerstudio MS Lite Reference 1.3 pdf states that
"on the fly" switching between sequential and other modes can be used to test the effect on engine operation. In a recent thread http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 31&t=57570 , Matt says that this effect will be to stall the engine and don't do it!. James didn't reply.
Some months ago, I did attempt to use this feature on MS3/3X pre1.3a7 running 12 cylinder sequential switching from sequential to semi-sequential on the fly in the test mode as outlined in 17.11 and the engine did stall. I can't be certain, but * I think * it also knocked out the flyback circuit on my peak and hold drivers so I'm not keen on "retesting" this until it has been verified as working on 12 cylinders. (It'd be nice of way of checking dead time settings.)
If not all options are available for all engine configurations, perhaps the manual ought to qualify this more precisely.
kind regards
Marek
"on the fly" switching between sequential and other modes can be used to test the effect on engine operation. In a recent thread http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 31&t=57570 , Matt says that this effect will be to stall the engine and don't do it!. James didn't reply.
Some months ago, I did attempt to use this feature on MS3/3X pre1.3a7 running 12 cylinder sequential switching from sequential to semi-sequential on the fly in the test mode as outlined in 17.11 and the engine did stall. I can't be certain, but * I think * it also knocked out the flyback circuit on my peak and hold drivers so I'm not keen on "retesting" this until it has been verified as working on 12 cylinders. (It'd be nice of way of checking dead time settings.)
If not all options are available for all engine configurations, perhaps the manual ought to qualify this more precisely.
kind regards
Marek
Re: MS3 new documentation discussion
Was my previous suggestion found to be unacceptable? I saw no feedback on it and I see no change made in the manuals.
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Re: MS3 new documentation discussion
What happened to the MS manuals? I can't even find information on the sync error types.
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Re: MS3 new documentation discussion
Do you have any example settings?hardline wrote:Might I suggest rewording section "4.1.1 Existing EFI Vehicle" to include the fact that control of Ford's returnless FPDM-based system works and has been tested on a number of working installs.
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Re: MS3 new documentation discussion
Sure do, I'll post up the necessary info tonight, as I am currently at work.
2000 ZX2 : Sequential COP, MS3 + MS3X + TinyIOx, PWM Returnless Fuel, Flex Fuel, Variable Geometry Intake Manifold, Garrett GTX2863R .82AR housing @ 15 psi
Re: MS3 new documentation discussion
Settings require either an inversion circuit for fuel pump polarity, or a pull-up resistor installed to the fuel pump output.
You then need to setup a generic sensor as the fuel pressure input, in KPA.
You then need to setup a generic sensor as the fuel pressure input, in KPA.
2000 ZX2 : Sequential COP, MS3 + MS3X + TinyIOx, PWM Returnless Fuel, Flex Fuel, Variable Geometry Intake Manifold, Garrett GTX2863R .82AR housing @ 15 psi