MS3 new documentation discussion

General support questions and announcements for MS3. See also MS3 manuals.

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jsmcortina
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Re: MS3 new documentation discussion

Post by jsmcortina »

Hall sensors are not the same as gear-tooth sensors.

Hall sensors detect an external magnet.
Gear-tooth sensors have a magnet built-in and sense ferrous material.

James
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Re: MS3 new documentation discussion

Post by dragbug »

jsmcortina wrote:Hall sensors are not the same as gear-tooth sensors.

Hall sensors detect an external magnet.
Gear-tooth sensors have a magnet built-in and sense ferrous material.

James
Ok, then the way that whole section is written makes it very confusing. The DIYautotune.com version specifically lists it as a hall sensor but suggest setting it up like a VR. Again, adding even more confusion.

You didn't comment on anything else I posted, was curious if any of it was good or not?
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jsmcortina
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Re: MS3 new documentation discussion

Post by jsmcortina »

The guys from DIYA are best placed to answer any questions about their site.

Personally I don't recommend the relay board.

James
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dragbug
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Re: MS3 new documentation discussion

Post by dragbug »

jsmcortina wrote:The guys from DIYA are best placed to answer any questions about their site.

Personally I don't recommend the relay board.

James
Ok......can you elaborate as to why you don't recommend it? DIY certainly does and I would guess that the majority of people buying MS are getting it from DIY just as I did. It would make sense to at the very least, acknowledge it in the manual.

Keep in mind, my suggestions are based on my own experiences, frustrations and confusion. I doubt I am the only one. This topic was to discuss the documentation and I assumed that meant suggestions to include making it easier even for noobs like me. If the documentation is not suppose to help people like me and only for advanced users, then please say so. Your one sentence response tells me you can't be bothered to take my suggestions into consideration. I am just trying to help future new users with zero background in electronic or electronic fuel injection.
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Re: MS3 new documentation discussion

Post by Matt Cramer »

dragbug wrote:
Ok, then the way that whole section is written makes it very confusing. The DIYautotune.com version specifically lists it as a hall sensor but suggest setting it up like a VR.
The VR conditioner makes a great all purpose input and works for nearly everything except triggering off the negative terminal of the coil. Our experience is the Hall / optical input circuit requires too much current to trigger and is too heavily filtered (if C12 and C30 are present) to work well with our sensor. But the VR input works great with it.
dragbug wrote: Ok......can you elaborate as to why you don't recommend it? DIY certainly does and I would guess that the majority of people buying MS are getting it from DIY just as I did. It would make sense to at the very least, acknowledge it in the manual.
We typically recommend the relay board for some specific installs, but not all of them. We generally recommend it if (1) the car was not originally wired for EFI, and (2) if the car will not be used in an application where high vibration is a concern. On cars with factory EFI, we typically recommend using the OEM fuses and relays to support EFI, and on cars where vibration is an issue, we typically recommend relays on tabbed terminals or other crimp on blocks.
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dragbug
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Re: MS3 new documentation discussion

Post by dragbug »

Matt Cramer wrote:
dragbug wrote:
Ok, then the way that whole section is written makes it very confusing. The DIYautotune.com version specifically lists it as a hall sensor but suggest setting it up like a VR.
The VR conditioner makes a great all purpose input and works for nearly everything except triggering off the negative terminal of the coil. Our experience is the Hall / optical input circuit requires too much current to trigger and is too heavily filtered (if C12 and C30 are present) to work well with our sensor. But the VR input works great with it.
dragbug wrote: Ok......can you elaborate as to why you don't recommend it? DIY certainly does and I would guess that the majority of people buying MS are getting it from DIY just as I did. It would make sense to at the very least, acknowledge it in the manual.
We typically recommend the relay board for some specific installs, but not all of them. We generally recommend it if (1) the car was not originally wired for EFI, and (2) if the car will not be used in an application where high vibration is a concern. On cars with factory EFI, we typically recommend using the OEM fuses and relays to support EFI, and on cars where vibration is an issue, we typically recommend relays on tabbed terminals or other crimp on blocks.

Thanks Matt for responding and explaining, I appreciate it. I went with the relay board because my car was not originally EFI and it made sense to use the relay board. I know there are a lot of people out there just like me. I was only posting here in order to see if I could help other people in the future not have to be as confused and frustrated. I know DIY isn't directly involved with the manual but honestly, either DYI should make one or collaborate to make the manual more noob friendly.
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Re: MS3 new documentation discussion

Post by prof315 »

James,

I found a typo in section 5.3 of the MS3 ( and MS2) Hardware manual. The picture of the mainboard showing the 6 potential ignition channels has JS5 for Spark E and JS4 for Spark F while the table below it shows JS4 for Spark E and JS5 for Spark F.
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Re: MS3 new documentation discussion

Post by suberimakuri »

Possible correction:
Page 47. Tacho output.
Currently:
"As standard, the MS3X connector 'Tacho' output will provide a 0-12V signal that is suitable for most aftermarket
tachometers. (Ensure that JP2 is in place on the MS3X card.)
"

I think JP2 should be JP3.
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Re: MS3 new documentation discussion

Post by suberimakuri »

Page 212: Photo help.

Optional If you plan on running an idle valve or VVT solenoids from the MS3X outputs, install a jumper wire now.
Solder a wire into the S12 hole on the mainboard and solder the other end onto the 'C' end of D1 on the MS3X card.
This gives all of the MS3X mid-current outputs a 12V flyback clamp and makes them suitable for high-frequency valves.


Whilst not the best photo or work compared to you guys, I've attached a couple if helps.
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Re: MS3 new documentation discussion

Post by jsmcortina »

Thanks for those photos.
Yes it should be JP3.

James
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bren32
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Re: MS3 new documentation discussion

Post by bren32 »

Question RE section 6.9.11 Non-missing tooth crank wheel with one cam tooth

Page 141 of the new manual states

Typical settings:
Spark mode = Toothed wheel
Trigger angle/offset = 0 (not used in toothed wheel mode)
Trigger wheel arrangement = Dual wheel
Trigger wheel teeth = number of teeth
Tooth #1 angle = tooth #1 angle as determined above
Main wheel speed = Cam wheel
Second trigger active on = Rising (verify with composite logger)
and every rotation of = Cam

Is the Main wheel speed = Cam wheel correct or should it be Crank?
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Re: MS3 new documentation discussion

Post by jsmcortina »

bren32 wrote:Question RE section 6.9.11 Non-missing tooth crank wheel with one cam tooth

Page 141 of the new manual states

Typical settings:
Spark mode = Toothed wheel
Trigger angle/offset = 0 (not used in toothed wheel mode)
Trigger wheel arrangement = Dual wheel
Trigger wheel teeth = number of teeth
Tooth #1 angle = tooth #1 angle as determined above
Main wheel speed = Cam wheel
Second trigger active on = Rising (verify with composite logger)
and every rotation of = Cam

Is the Main wheel speed = Cam wheel correct or should it be Crank?
Yes, looks like that is a cut/paste error from the previous section.

EDIT: PS please mention WHICH manual you are referring to, there are seven Hardware manuals. (In this case they will all have that same mistake.)

James
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"Wet-Walling" typo

Post by cmonref »

MS3 TS Reference Manual, first lines of each section from sections 12.7 thru the end of section 12.

Phrase "Wet-Walling" appears where "Wall-Wetting" should be -- it references the phrase on the TS menu.

Also:

MS3 Setting Up Manual, Appendix C - MS Glossary

AFM -- <and definition> is not correctly placed in the alphabetical listing. It is between "TS" and "VOC".
Brian
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Laminar
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Re: MS3 new documentation discussion

Post by Laminar »

Hi James,

First off I just wanted to say how thankful I am for your thorough documentation and the incredible support you and others provide on this forum - I'm certain it will prove invaluable as I get my MS3 setup installed in the coming months.

As I read through the Megasquirt3_Setting_Up-1.3 manual dated 2014-11-17, I took some notes on things I found here and there. I tried to focus on typos more than comma or hyphen usage, hopefully you find this helpful and I'll have contributed to this great community in some small way. Locations are designated by page number, the text in quotes should help identify the location of the typo. Some of the style-related notes are subjective and entirely up to the author's discretion (for example, the Oxford comma), but I thought I'd note them anyway. If there's no note, I figured the error should be self-explanatory. Without further ado, here's my list:
Megasquirt3_Setting_Up-1.3
12
(planned) - they're out, right?
"care !"
15
"Mac or Linux" - Oxford comma
"Now is time" - is the time
"...executable'" - no period
17
"manufacturers" - apostrophe
18
"your forgot"
19
"Extract All" - no period (consistence in lists - choose whether or not each phrase in a list gets a period)
21
"long than a minute"
22
"Mac/OSX" - Mac OS X
23
"Baud" capitalized
"zip/.zip" - consistency (I vote ".zip")
27
"as show below"
28
"select if from"
"section 3.4" - no period
29
"for the both sensors"
"as show below"
30
"air fuel ration"
"...Inputs 1" - no period
"Note: these" - capitalize these
33
"slightly touching" - double space
"setups" vs. "set-ups"
"50 k Pa"
"the actual" - double space
"oddfire" vs. odd fire/even fire consistency
"Tach", "Coil" hyphens
34
periods after quotation marks
35
" "COP"or " - missing space
36
"Completing"
37
"dead time" - no hyphen/hyphen style
38
"you idle valve"
"open" vs "Closed" loop - capitalization
"so long as they" - should be "to ensure they", "so long as" implies enabling is allowed
40
"There other"
"SaveAs"
41
"width testing" - double space
42
"check that the static pressure"
48
"making the change"
"restart the engine" - engine's not running yet, possibly copy and pasted from pg 50
"timing is" - double space?
"plugs leads"
49
"start, in" - no comma needed
"Idle).pay-off If"
"here." - should be colon
"have got" - have gotten
"Difference" - Differences
"engine," - engine;
50
"making the change"
"you idle timing"
53
"there are is", "influence"
63
"The Idle TPS Threshold % setting" - weird font stuff in this paragraph, maybe copy and pasted from somewhere else?
66
"TPS Sensor" - throttle position sensor sensor
67
"air for the lines" - air from
70
"row can" - double space
72
"dialog" - no period
76
"the aim" - capitalized
"Semi-sequential may however"
77
"Negatives values"
80
"use s hort hose"
83
"as ever" - as always?
86
"octane fuel)" - needs period
"knock sensor. Resonant" - should be colon instead of period
87
"location of the sensor" - location for the sensor?
"for you product"
92
"IF so"
93
"is fair smooth"
94
"as load increase"
99
"the settings wildly"
100
"feedback systems."
116
"is calibration to"
"During wiring step"
117
"your need to collect"
118
"driving wheel" - driven?
119
"miss shift" - mis-shift or miss a shift
120
"throttle body) this" - comma
"suppliers" - apostrophe
121
"manufacturers" - apostrophe
122
"content include" - note to self?
125
"to communication with other"
126
"this can really useful"
127
"will simply two wires"
130
"be turn on"
"two method to save"
131
"all ground wire used"
136
"inputs conditioners"
138
"de-installing" - uninstalling?
140
"prise out" - pry?
142
"key phase" - phases
"you 1.2.x tune"
142
"re-load you dash"
"you 1.0.x"
145
"as it a new user" x2
"choose you tach"
146
"as it a new user"
"you VE table"
148
"different to" - different from
149
"different automotive processor" - processors
150
"injection and ignition function" - functions
151
"Megasquirt-3 or 3."
"MegaSquirt® is an example." - 'i' in 'is' is superscript
152
"a number of variant"
"it represent to number of times"
"though it term is sometimes"
153
"an MS3 and MS3 feature"
"MS3 = Megasquirt-3, MS3 = Megasquirt-3"
156
"MSQ file's" - files, no apostrophe
"The first mainstream" - 'T' in 'the' isn't italic
"TPS Sensor" - throttle position sensor sensor
157
"wasted spark system, is" - no comma needed
Again, thanks for the great documentation! If you find this helpful, I might be able to do the same thing for the Hardware manual.
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Re: MS3 new documentation discussion

Post by jsmcortina »

Laminar wrote:Again, thanks for the great documentation! If you find this helpful, I might be able to do the same thing for the Hardware manual.
Thanks, I'll review all of those changes and try not to introduce too many more in the process (!)

If you get chance on the hardware manuals, please do.
I'm just in the process of updating them, so I might get another version out before you get chance to review.

James
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Laminar
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Re: MS3 new documentation discussion

Post by Laminar »

Here's a hardware manual:
MS3XV30_Hardware-1.3 - 2014-12-08

8
"alternation"
"damages...including" - line break?
9
"care !"
21
"on absolute" - on an absolute
22
"'Open-element'' sensor have" - sensors
"turbo-charged application" - applications x2
24
"For a GM sensors"
25
"have two wires, one" - colon instead of comma
"has three wires, 5V supply" - same as previous, occurs a few more times later
52
"outputs setting" - output settings
53
"extinguisher to hand" - on hand
"fuel rails(s) these"
54
"feed you engine"
55
"have an return"
56
"copper and it can fatigue"
"out of passenger compartment"
57
"Many place supply" - places
58
"[assuming the same number of injectors]" - brackets vs. parenthesis
65
"there are a number" - double space
66
"has a two tach inputs"
67
"instead runs XG1"
70
"and will need one installing"
76
"so that the point are just opening" - points?
77
"particularly from the 1980s combine" - 1980s,
79
"technical note : some" - note:
81
"this is a critical !"
"the follow is required"
82
"The contain an ignition"
"coils.(was 4.5)" - coils (was 4.5).
88
"COPs: used" - Used
95
"manufacturers installation instructions" - manufacturer's
96
"EFI and distributorless" - double space
100
"Also other versiants" - versiants?
102
"straight forward" - straightforward
110
"distributors used the 4 pin" - using?
120
"wiring need confirming" - needs
122
"peril !"
126
"tooth#1" vs. "tooth #1" consistency
142
"Alternative #2: use" - Use (pg 145 also)
146
"evenly space slots"
148
"need to be connected.."
150
"'Toothed Wheel', mode with" - extra comma?
159
list colon vs. equal sign
165
"has thee sets of four notches"
"Known applications include: 3.7 V6" - thought it was the Jeep 4.0?
166
Same as previous - should be four cylinder?
168
"beyond the scope without MS3X," - this is the MS3X manual, is it possible?
"also required, with a one, two tooth"
201
"if your using"
Step 10 is blank
204
"(MC33072)" - no period
208
"of you're voltmeter"
"voltage on the meter"
"using a battery) if" - battery). If
"metal tab of Q9"
"then its likely" - then it's likely
210
"now your ready to test" - you're
212
"spares pin headers"
"optical sensors inputs" - sensor
I still want to read through the base manual to see if there's anything to be gleaned from that one, if I get a chance I may do that tomorrow.
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Re: MS3 new documentation discussion

Post by jsmcortina »

Great, thanks for that.

James
EDIT: PS. I'm about to put out some manual updates that don't yet include those last edits.
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Sam280Z
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Re: MS3 new documentation discussion

Post by Sam280Z »

Page 107 of the TunerStudio help manual under the Staging Table section:
"The values in the table determine the percent staged, 0% means not staged at all, 100% means fully staged, and a percentage value between means that ignition is partially staged."

Should read:
"The values in the table determine the percent staged, 0% means not staged at all, 100% means fully staged, and a percentage value between means that injection is partially staged."

Could a description be added to differentiate between what percent staged means when Transition Fully To Secondaries is On and Off? (Ken provided this in another thread: "Even when you are using the table, at "100%" the duty and PW are the same as long as you are not switching fully to secondaries.")

Also, would it be possible to further describe the staging calculation? E.g. what 50% staged means in terms of duty cycle or PW.
I'm trying to set up the staged table to prevent sub 2ms PWs. Knowing how the percent staged is applied would be most helpful.
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kaeman
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Re: MS3 new documentation discussion

Post by kaeman »

I love the new documentation.... it has been very helpful, I am getting new understanding of some things that I was unsure of. Keep up the great work.
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Re: MS3 new documentation discussion

Post by muythaibxr »

Could a description be added to differentiate between what percent staged means when Transition Fully To Secondaries is On and Off? (Ken provided this in another thread: "Even when you are using the table, at "100%" the duty and PW are the same as long as you are not switching fully to secondaries.")
We should be able to add that, but we can try to get the wording right here first:

In the mode you're talking about, if you're talking about 50% staged for example, it'll scale the primaries to 50% of their original commanded PW (so if you weren't staging at all, and you wanted 10ms there, staging 50% would give you 5 ms), and scale the secondaries up enough to compensate for the smaller amount of fuel being injected by the primaries.

In other words, 50% staged in that mode means that half the actual fuel is coming from primaries and half from secondaries. If the secondaries are bigger, their PW will be smaller.

Ken
Megasquirt is not for use on pollution controlled vehicles. Any advice I give is for off road use only.
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