Solid state relay SSR failure on NOS system
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Solid state relay SSR failure on NOS system
We were using 4 of these SSR"s to run the NOS system on a pro mod bike. The fuel solenoids are 22ohms and the NOS solenoids are 2ohms. Both of the fuel solenoid relays failed on the same pass (causing another expired motor). The NOS relays are just fine. You would think that if either would fail it would be the ones driving the lower ohm NOS solenoids. We had the frequency a bit higher on the fuel (19hz) compared to (15hz) could this cause it. Any reccomendations on better relays ???????
Thanks, Jeff
Thanks, Jeff
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Re: Solid state relay SSR failure on NOS system
Oh s$%^&.
Do you think that EGTs would be able to pick up a problem quickly enough to shut down the motor before failure? I've had the EGT safety system shut me down on a run when I was playing with nitrous fuelling - but my runs last twice as long.
Or any other thoughts on active monitoring e.g. a pressure sensor downstream of the solenoid?
James
Do you think that EGTs would be able to pick up a problem quickly enough to shut down the motor before failure? I've had the EGT safety system shut me down on a run when I was playing with nitrous fuelling - but my runs last twice as long.
Or any other thoughts on active monitoring e.g. a pressure sensor downstream of the solenoid?
James
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Re: Solid state relay SSR failure on NOS system
It is hard to recommend anything with consequences like those, at stake.
But it would seem like this simple piece from DIYautotune could drive those 22 ohm loads at any freq. you need.
http://www.diyautotune.com/diypnp/docs/sequential.html
http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/diyp ... p-386.html
But it would seem like this simple piece from DIYautotune could drive those 22 ohm loads at any freq. you need.
http://www.diyautotune.com/diypnp/docs/sequential.html
http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/diyp ... p-386.html
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Re: Solid state relay SSR failure on NOS system
I would not use that here. I would use FETs in a TO220 package on a big heat sink. The current and frequency used here should be trivial for many FETs so it should be easy to have a lot of margin. And you could even add redundancy.atomic6 wrote:http://www.diyautotune.com/diypnp/docs/sequential.html
Jean
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Re: Solid state relay SSR failure on NOS system
Jean,
I can build the stuff you sell in kit form but not too much more. Looks like I need to go back to school
I can build the stuff you sell in kit form but not too much more. Looks like I need to go back to school
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Re: Solid state relay SSR failure on NOS system
James,
AFR safety would be better and much quicker. We will be working on that. Problem with that right now is that the NOS bike still has carbs on it and it goes lean after every shift when the motor is loaded in the next gear. Trying to get him to go total fuel injection.
AFR safety would be better and much quicker. We will be working on that. Problem with that right now is that the NOS bike still has carbs on it and it goes lean after every shift when the motor is loaded in the next gear. Trying to get him to go total fuel injection.
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Re: Solid state relay SSR failure on NOS system
There's still chances that you could get it to work even like that - assuming that the wideband will show lean for long enough to trigger the system before the engine has got into real trouble? Worth looking at datalogs to see.jeffmarsh750 wrote:James,
AFR safety would be better and much quicker. We will be working on that. Problem with that right now is that the NOS bike still has carbs on it and it goes lean after every shift when the motor is loaded in the next gear. Trying to get him to go total fuel injection.
James
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Re: Solid state relay SSR failure on NOS system
A bit of a curiosity question here, but have you popped the cover off of one of the expired SSR's to see if it's one of the exceptionally bad quality Chinese knock offs?
I've seen some horror stories of electrical 'engineering' going into a few of the commonly available SSRs that are on eBay and Amazon lately. Do a search for "fake SSR" for a little reading material, and possibly save some grief if that's what bit you this time.
Best of luck in finding out what went wrong and preventing it next time, though!
I've seen some horror stories of electrical 'engineering' going into a few of the commonly available SSRs that are on eBay and Amazon lately. Do a search for "fake SSR" for a little reading material, and possibly save some grief if that's what bit you this time.
Best of luck in finding out what went wrong and preventing it next time, though!
Josh
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Re: Solid state relay SSR failure on NOS system
From the links found on Google, the SRR pictured here would be a fake as it has the reversed polarity for the poles 1 and 2 compared to the real ones (according to the documentation found on those links). It should be possible to find some real ones instead of the cheap Chinese knock offs.
Jean
Jean
Re: Solid state relay SSR failure on NOS system
Also, are you using any diodes to deal with the inductive spikes generated by the solenoids?
If not, I wonder if the spikes combined with the relatively high switching rate are just dumping too much energy back into the relays.
Or... I'll second Jean's suggestion about using FETs on a heatsink, or even BIP373's. Those are designed to drive inductive loads and are easily drivable with the 5V output from a Megasquirt with no additional circuitry.
Edit: actually in order to make a neat setup with little loose wiring, you could use one of Jean's 4-channel driver boards: http://www.jbperf.com/quad_ign_inj/index.html (you still need a heatsink though, or use the Megasquirt's case).
If not, I wonder if the spikes combined with the relatively high switching rate are just dumping too much energy back into the relays.
Or... I'll second Jean's suggestion about using FETs on a heatsink, or even BIP373's. Those are designed to drive inductive loads and are easily drivable with the 5V output from a Megasquirt with no additional circuitry.
Edit: actually in order to make a neat setup with little loose wiring, you could use one of Jean's 4-channel driver boards: http://www.jbperf.com/quad_ign_inj/index.html (you still need a heatsink though, or use the Megasquirt's case).
Eric Law
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1990 Audi 80 quattro with AAN turbo engine: happily running on MS3+MS3X
2012 Audi A4 quattro, desperately in need of tweaking
Be alert! America needs more lerts.
Re: Solid state relay SSR failure on NOS system
If you want to try with the same sort of SSR setup again, I'd look for something like a Crydom D1D20 (or change the last two digits to the current rating that you need.)
I picked up a couple of old stock D1d40 ssrs for $18 each, and can see a few D1D20's and 40's on ebay for $15 and $22 respectively.
I picked up a couple of old stock D1d40 ssrs for $18 each, and can see a few D1D20's and 40's on ebay for $15 and $22 respectively.
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Re: Solid state relay SSR failure on NOS system
Yep ! Cheap chineese crap they are. Thanks for all the response and helpful info.
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Re: Solid state relay SSR failure on NOS system
Caution! I've not tested this suggestion....
How about using an ignition module such as a Bosch 124? They are designed to switch a number of amps and deal with hundreds of volts of flyback. It could be driven from a spare spark output channel.
Thoughts anyone?
James
How about using an ignition module such as a Bosch 124? They are designed to switch a number of amps and deal with hundreds of volts of flyback. It could be driven from a spare spark output channel.
Thoughts anyone?
James
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Re: Solid state relay SSR failure on NOS system
Great Idea James. Could I use a spare injector or high current output ? as that is what we are currently using, or would an ignition channel be better suited ?
Thanks, Jeff
Thanks, Jeff
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Re: Solid state relay SSR failure on NOS system
I'd drive the ignition module from a spark ignition output.
Do test thoroughly !
James
Do test thoroughly !
James
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Re: Solid state relay SSR failure on NOS system
Another tip from a NOS tuner, never push the lean side on NOS. ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS keep it FAT on NOS. It is easier to clean/replace plugs, keep upping flow to keep ahead of lean death.
NOS is fickle lover, she breaks when you least expect it and from oddest things. We had a fellow with a cracked NOS bottle tube, in the bottle AND a cracked fuel pickup tube(dont ask why it wasnt a fitting in a sump) and he would push his tune too the lean side. And popped two handfulls of (ie he carnaged 8+ engines) before fixing issues and listening. He would have a lean out one run, a richen up next. Finally found NOS bottle had rattle, guy wouldnt fill it and he had to rent/buy spare(I know??), that fixed rich up issue.
All these issues happened randomly never back to back. Last engine he dumped he SAW the lean out on a digital gauge he installed.
His squeezed engine went from 11.6 to 1 AFR to like 60-1 AFR, bang.
Borrows engine we set it up mucho fat on the squeeze fuel side and he leaned out but only at several plugs.
And if owner/racer is SEEING leanout and fails to address it, he deserves to buy new engine. Some people will not learn, hit thumb with hammer, ow, hit thumb with hammer ow, rinse, repeat,,,,,
Nuff said, yep watch out on Chinese knock offs, some good, some bad.
For critical controls I would build a test rig to TEST control parts several times before installing.
Good Luck
NOS is fickle lover, she breaks when you least expect it and from oddest things. We had a fellow with a cracked NOS bottle tube, in the bottle AND a cracked fuel pickup tube(dont ask why it wasnt a fitting in a sump) and he would push his tune too the lean side. And popped two handfulls of (ie he carnaged 8+ engines) before fixing issues and listening. He would have a lean out one run, a richen up next. Finally found NOS bottle had rattle, guy wouldnt fill it and he had to rent/buy spare(I know??), that fixed rich up issue.
All these issues happened randomly never back to back. Last engine he dumped he SAW the lean out on a digital gauge he installed.
His squeezed engine went from 11.6 to 1 AFR to like 60-1 AFR, bang.
Borrows engine we set it up mucho fat on the squeeze fuel side and he leaned out but only at several plugs.
And if owner/racer is SEEING leanout and fails to address it, he deserves to buy new engine. Some people will not learn, hit thumb with hammer, ow, hit thumb with hammer ow, rinse, repeat,,,,,
Nuff said, yep watch out on Chinese knock offs, some good, some bad.
For critical controls I would build a test rig to TEST control parts several times before installing.
Good Luck
Re: Solid state relay SSR failure on NOS system
On many installs I use BIP373 to drive ford 2 wire IAC without any issues, cant see why this wouldnt also drive fuel/n2o solenoids, but id also install a flyback diode across the solenoidjsmcortina wrote:Caution! I've not tested this suggestion....
How about using an ignition module such as a Bosch 124? They are designed to switch a number of amps and deal with hundreds of volts of flyback. It could be driven from a spare spark output channel.
Thoughts anyone?
James
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Re: Solid state relay SSR failure on NOS system
I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. Too much fuel and too much timing will easily hurt a piston, way before running it lean. I've tried the rich route (as well as lots of friends using old NOS tuneups) and we all have the ashtrays as proof, but I forgot to plug my fuel solenoid back in after checking the pressure one time and also left the cap off of the tee where I used to hook up my gauge and both times (same set of pistons) the motor survived. I always start on the lean side and low timing now and sneak up on it and have had much better results and no new ashtrays lol. I'm not saying you'll never hurt anything running lean, because you can, but it's more forgiving in my opinion.MonzaRacer wrote:Another tip from a NOS tuner, never push the lean side on NOS. ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS keep it FAT on NOS. It is easier to clean/replace plugs, keep upping flow to keep ahead of lean death.
NOS is fickle lover, she breaks when you least expect it and from oddest things. We had a fellow with a cracked NOS bottle tube, in the bottle AND a cracked fuel pickup tube(dont ask why it wasnt a fitting in a sump) and he would push his tune too the lean side. And popped two handfulls of (ie he carnaged 8+ engines) before fixing issues and listening. He would have a lean out one run, a richen up next. Finally found NOS bottle had rattle, guy wouldnt fill it and he had to rent/buy spare(I know??), that fixed rich up issue.
All these issues happened randomly never back to back. Last engine he dumped he SAW the lean out on a digital gauge he installed.
His squeezed engine went from 11.6 to 1 AFR to like 60-1 AFR, bang.
Borrows engine we set it up mucho fat on the squeeze fuel side and he leaned out but only at several plugs.
And if owner/racer is SEEING leanout and fails to address it, he deserves to buy new engine. Some people will not learn, hit thumb with hammer, ow, hit thumb with hammer ow, rinse, repeat,,,,,
Nuff said, yep watch out on Chinese knock offs, some good, some bad.
For critical controls I would build a test rig to TEST control parts several times before installing.
Good Luck
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Re: Solid state relay SSR failure on NOS system
Yup, this is my guess too.elaw wrote:Also, are you using any diodes to deal with the inductive spikes generated by the solenoids?
If not, I wonder if the spikes combined with the relatively high switching rate are just dumping too much energy back into the relays.
These SS relays aren't meant to cope with inductive loads (they do state this in the datasheets).
A fast, large snubber diode is required.
Same applies for anyone using them for fuel pump or thermo fan control.
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Re: Solid state relay SSR failure on NOS system
At my place of work, we install a basic 1N4001 or 1N4002 diode across inductive load power leads, when building aviation repair equipment. So far it works well, and the company is going on 35 years, and shipping this equipment all around the world.
I just mention that to suggest that it doesn't necessarily require an extraordinarily fancy diode, just as long as it is rated for the voltage of the reverse polarity surge from the coil's field collapse.
I just mention that to suggest that it doesn't necessarily require an extraordinarily fancy diode, just as long as it is rated for the voltage of the reverse polarity surge from the coil's field collapse.
Josh
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