BMW S62B50

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ragepower
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BMW S62B50

Post by ragepower »

Hi

I have the possibility to install a MS3 on a S62B50. A bmw v8 engine with intake and exaust VANOS.

There is someone who already have done this? Some tips would be useful.

What are the major dificulties on aplly a MS on this engine?

On the first analyse:

- I need to change throtle-by-wire to cable one.
- I need to find the Maf curve.
- I need to study the vanos wiring to MS. (MS is capable to control 4 VANOS, right?)

Best regards
grom_e30
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Re: BMW S62B50

Post by grom_e30 »

1990 bmw 320i daily driver with m20b25 ms3 sequential fuel, 380cc injectors, d585 coil near plug, home made cam sync, launch control, fan control, vss, homebrew egt logging what's next????
ragepower
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Re: BMW S62B50m weird dead-time

Post by ragepower »

Im regarding information to do this installation.

I want to have the injectors correctly defined. So I did the Dead-time measurement procedure for MS Manual. And the result are a kind weird.

@8.8V: 1,57ms
@12.4V: 0.52ms (this don't seam to be right)
@ 14,4V: 0.8ms

What is your opinion?

UPDATE:
xls attached
grom_e30
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Re: BMW S62B50

Post by grom_e30 »

So from the graph you did the test at 8.8v? and did you repeat at different voltages?
1990 bmw 320i daily driver with m20b25 ms3 sequential fuel, 380cc injectors, d585 coil near plug, home made cam sync, launch control, fan control, vss, homebrew egt logging what's next????
ragepower
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Re: BMW S62B50

Post by ragepower »

Yes I did. It is on excel file.

For 8.8v, 12.4v and 14.1v. To PW 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12.5, 15, 17.5 and 20 ms. 3000 pulses for most of all.

Different voltage at different pages of excel file.

You can see it on the xls file.
thokes82
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Re: BMW S62B50

Post by thokes82 »

You should talk to the user AbatelliCristian
He is a pro and can help you with vanos stuff. This is much more complicated than figuring the dead time out...
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ragepower
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Re: BMW S62B50

Post by ragepower »

Im talking with him for the last month.

I want to have the injector clearly defined because wanna try to determine the MAF curve with, injector PW and lambda information..
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Re: BMW S62B50

Post by thokes82 »

Did you take the right number of "pulsos" in the 12.4V experiment? I ask because on 4ms there is 1500 mentioned instead of 3000
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ragepower
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Re: BMW S62B50

Post by ragepower »

Pulsos = pulses.

That was my first measurement, I used a 50cc scaled container, and try to almost full it. After this measurement, I thought to use a bigger container, do the injections and measure it with the 50cc container, to be more precise measure (more injections, less error fluctuation). It is more time consuming, but the measurement will be more precise, maybe I'm wrong.

The obtained dead time for 8,8V and 14,1V are the expected ones. But at 12,4V not. I tried to remove the 4ms data, but it won't change the result. I think that I did them on the same conditions.

I think that I need to repeat the measurement again to that voltage. I just want to understand why it happen to not do the same mistake again.
ekam99
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Re: BMW S62B50

Post by ekam99 »

There is a very beautiful method to find out the dead-time of an injector.
On a two-channel scope have a voltage and current (voltage drop across a small ~0.1 Ohm resistor) flowing across injector.
It's gonna look like this:
Image

1 – rising edge of the pulse.
2 – the moment injector opens up.
3 – falling edge.
4 – injector closes down here.
A – duration of a pulse.
B – actual duration of an injector being opened.

Next question is what you're realy looking at... Pure lag, i.e. 2-1, or calc error, i.e. difference in pulse and actual openning time (3-1) and (4-2)
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Re: BMW S62B50

Post by racingmini_mtl »

Unfortunately, that "beautiful method" doesn't give you the dead time. All it gives you is the electrical behaviour but that doesn't give you any information on the fuel flow which is what you need. The fuel flow is not linear while the injector is opening nor is it linear while it is closing so you can't just look at the curve you posted and use that since what you need is the fuel flow offset.

The electrical response offset could be a useful reference point but there is only one way to get the real dead time and that it to use a test setup that actually measures fuel flow. For more information, you can have a look here: http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms3/injdeadtime.html

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ekam99
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Re: BMW S62B50

Post by ekam99 »

This point is correct. Agree on that. Though all of that spikes in flow will be seen on electrical part as well. Anyways, for a routh starting point it works fine.
The description I posted to the graph is slightly incorect. The needle starts to move about half of ms earlier. What happens is - moving needle changes induction of a coil while it's being charged. The marker A shows the injector fully opened, then the coil of an injector continues to charge untill it sets on ohmic plateu. And flow is ~ sqared openning per time. If you realy know what's going on, you can predict quite closely.

Again, it's all brainstorming of an experimental physicist, because you need a 3 bar on top of the injector to begin with.
ragepower
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Re: BMW S62B50

Post by ragepower »

Some questions.

This engine was 4 knock sensors (one for each 2 cylinders) and MS only can take 2. For what I know, I need to choose one of each cylinder bank and the farthest of the water pump, since these cylinders will be hotter and have more probability to have knock. An I right?

My idle valve is a 3-wire valve and on the ECU pin out it is describe like this:

46 Idle actuator closing winding Idle actuator
47 Idle actuator opening winding Idle actuator

They need to be wired to MS on a specific position? They need the diode like on the 2-wire idle valve?
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Re: BMW S62B50

Post by jsmcortina »

ragepower wrote:They need to be wired to MS on a specific position? They need the diode like on the 2-wire idle valve?
Yes, one diode per coil.

James
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ragepower
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Re: BMW S62B50

Post by ragepower »

Ok.

Since I need to use 4 cam sensors (all hall sensor), AbatelliCristian suggested to use optocouplers to all of them, so the signal reach the CPU in the same way.

This optocouplers need to be something specific or can be any optocoupler?
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Re: BMW S62B50

Post by jsmcortina »

The 4N25 used on the V3 mainboard is likely ok. Otherwise you could replicate the protection circuit used for the PT4 input on the MS3X card.

The suggestion to make all inputs the same polarity is a good one.

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
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New users, please read the "Forum Help Page".
ragepower
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Re: BMW S62B50

Post by ragepower »

Ok. I will use the PT4 circuit for all of them. The diodes used on it are smd, and hard to use, there are someone on to-98 package? It would be easier to use. Or can be regular diodes like 1N4004? Or 5.1 , 5.6 V zener diode would be even easier.

I will BIP for coils. I can find documentation for mainboard (mine is V3.0). For MS3X is the same? (it need the 330 ohm resistor and the setting on TS is inverted?)
ragepower
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Re: BMW S62B50

Post by ragepower »

I found an important question.

Can MS3 handle with 8 Vanos valves? This engine is a V8, 4 Vanos, 2 vanos valves per cam, one for advance, other for retard.

This is the schematics for vanos valves.

On ECU pinout description I have this:

4 A Activation VANOS valve, cylinders 1-4 VANOS inlet, cylinder 1-4, advance
50 A Positive activation VANOS valve, cylinders 1-4 VANOS inlet cylinder 1-4, retard
44 A Positive activation VANOS outlet, cylinders 1-4 VANOS outlet cylinder 1-4, advance
43 A Positive activation VANOS outlet, cylinders 1-4 VANOS outlet cylinder 1-4, retard

45 A Positive activation VANOS valve, cylinders 5-8 VANOS inlet cylinder 5-8, advance
48 A Positive activation VANOS valve, cylinders 5-8 VANOS inlet cylinder 5-8, retard
41 A Positive activation VANOS outlet, cylinders 5-8 VANOS outlet cylinder 5-8, advance
40 A Positive activation VANOS outlet, cylinders 5-8 VANOS outlet cylinder 5-8, retard

EDIT:

This engine has a pressure accumulator controlled by ECU. Any one have a clue why and how is it controlled?
AbatelliCristian
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Re: BMW S62B50

Post by AbatelliCristian »

this is problem... do you have oil circuit vanos? the idraulic system is = bmw S54?

Positive activation? you have need highside driver...
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Re: BMW S62B50

Post by jsmcortina »

ragepower wrote:I found an important question.

Can MS3 handle with 8 Vanos valves? This engine is a V8, 4 Vanos, 2 vanos valves per cam, one for advance, other for retard.
Not currently no and probably not with the current hardware either.

Do you know what frequency they operate at?

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

My Success story: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 04&t=34277
MSEXTRA documentation at: http://www.msextra.com/doc/index.html
New users, please read the "Forum Help Page".
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