Confused and need some help please?

[dragbug]

Here are the facts:

Engine is a Ford 302 installed in a 66 Mustang
Summit Ready to Run Billet Distributor (3 wire without ignition box (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-850303-1))
MS3 V3 built and set up for fuel only using a GM throttle body
Relay Board built
Camshaft position sensor (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/rnb-689-103)
36-1 trigger wheel (wheel installed, sensor is not)

Now to the confusion. Nothing is installed as of yet but when I built the MS3 I initially set it up to run fuel only. I have every intention of running full sequential injection and COP using LS1 coils in the long term but for now, I set it up basically the same as the 77 Nova on DIYautotune.com. Also, if I remember right, it is set up to get the tach signal from the neg side of the coil. It sounds like I will need to get the MS3x when I get to the point I am ready to install the sequential injection and the COPs. My questions are:

1. Based on my current configuration, would I be able to still just install the MS3x without soldering different options on the MS3?
2. What changes on the MS3 board (or the MS3x) do I need to make to run the crank trigger and the cam sensor?
3. If using the MS3x, can I still use the relay board? If so, how if the MS3 is connected to it? I assume I still need the MS3 harness?
4. Can I use my current distro with the MS3 to control timing? Info (http://www.diyautotune.com/tech_article ... butors.htm) only suggests the two wire distro is possible.
5. Is it possible to run the crank trigger and the cam sensor for timing while maintaining a carbureted engine? What would I change on the MS3 and would I need the MS3x for this?

Any help would be appreciated!

[Matt Cramer]

1. Based on my current configuration, would I be able to still just install the MS3x without soldering different options on the MS3?
2. What changes on the MS3 board (or the MS3x) do I need to make to run the crank trigger and the cam sensor?

A V3.57 can be changed from coil negative triggering to a trigger wheel with pull off jumpers; a V3.0 will need some soldering to change which input circuit is used.

3. If using the MS3x, can I still use the relay board? If so, how if the MS3 is connected to it? I assume I still need the MS3 harness?

Yes. Main board wires are run through the relay board; MS3X is run through its own harness.

4. Can I use my current distro with the MS3 to control timing? Info (http://www.diyautotune.com/tech_article ... butors.htm) only suggests the two wire distro is possible.

I'd use a crank trigger instead. This could be used to control timing with a distributor.

5. Is it possible to run the crank trigger and the cam sensor for timing while maintaining a carbureted engine? What would I change on the MS3 and would I need the MS3x for this?

Any help would be appreciated!

Yes, just don't connect the fuel outputs.

[dragbug]

Thanks for the reply! I intend to use a crank trigger. But the link I provided talks about the MSD Ready to Run distributor that uses a two wire connection and ignition box. I have the three wire and no ignition box so I wasn't sure if it could be used and if so, how it's connected.

[Matt Cramer]

With a crank trigger, the distributor's electronics would not be connected to anything at all.

[dragbug]

For full sequential wouldn't I need both crank and cam triggers? I plan to eventually install a cam sensor and run COP but I have to take this in steps and would run a crank trigger plus the MSD distributor and a single coil for now. Maybe I am just confusing myself? Ok, if not running a crank trigger (still have to figure out where to mount the sensor) and using the distributor to control the timing (I know its less accurate but..) how would I connect the 3 wire MSD to the MS3?

And one question I forgot to ask. If I connect the MS3x board to my MS3 as it is configured right now, can I still run fuel only at first? And will this affect the wires I have going to the relay board? Do I need to remove the injector wire from the relay board and connect it to the MS3x instead? The MS3x board is causing me the most confusion and I know it should be far simpler but....

[billr]

Since you intend to use the 36-1 eventually, and even have the wheel already installed, focus on getting the sensor mounted. Using that for CKP you don't have to connect any low-voltage wires (spark wires to cap still needed, of course) at all to the dizzy (whatever type) to get up-and-running with single-coil. You also don't have to be concerned about spark outputs from the MS3X, they won't be used for single-coil, you can run off the existing coil driver on the V3.0 mainboard (you did install it, correct?).

[dragbug]

You also don't have to be concerned about spark outputs from the MS3X, they won't be used for single-coil, you can run off the existing coil driver on the V3.0 mainboard (you did install it, correct?).

Thank you for helping! Honestly, I don't know if the coil driver is installed or not. It's been months since I built the MS3 and I didn't keep a copy of the old manual I used so I have been reviewing the new manual and it seems less intuitive then the old one. I think the old manual actually had more pictures showing the different configurations then the new one does. I want to say that yes, its installed. My intent when building this thing was to just get the d*** thing on as quickly and easily as possible and then upgrade as needed. However, during that whole time, I have been collecting the parts for more complicated setup (crank trigger, COP) and its possible I might have configured it for what I want to do versus what I can do. I will have to pull my MS3 apart and visually check out the connections.

[dragbug]

Ok so I got home and opened up my MS3 to see how I originally configured it. Its set up to get tach from -ve on the coil but I do not have it set up for a high current output from the coil (BIP373 is not installed in Q16, jumper IGBTout-IGN not connected, and no resister between IGBTin and R26). So I have to ask, should I remove the configuration for getting the tach signal from the coil and set that up for the crank trigger (VR I think) and configure it for the high current output? Assuming I run the crank trigger and use the single coil to spark. If I get the MS3x, do I even need to do this still?

[billr]

I am unfamiliar with triggering from a coil, so let's wait for somebody else to chime in on that. If you still have the components for the coil driver circuit on the mainboard, then I'm pretty sure it will be a simple task to do that. I really see no reason to not install that stuff, "just in case". I use a 60-2 wheel with VR CKP sensor and having the standard single-coil driver installed doesn't interfere with anything. It was handy to have when I was playing with a different engine that didn't have existing coil drivers! Using bank-firing of the injectors and a single-coil-dizzy arrangement you can get any engine running without the MS3X, and having it installed won't hurt anything; just leave the D37 connector to it unconnected to anything. Don't let that be a stumbling block. And, don't let concerns about hooking up a cam sensor trip you up right now, that can come later when you have the basic install running rock-steady.

My main point is, get that nice 36-1 CKP signal going right at the start, don't waste time trying to trigger off the dizzy.

[dragbug]

Thanks again! I think I started setting it up to trigger from the coil before I decided it wasn't going to be as difficult as I thought getting the 36-1 wheel hooked up. But then I started having a hard time deciding how to adapt a sensor for the wheel. And probably thought I would get the cop installed so decided not to hook up the high current output.... But Ya, I think you are right. I just need to get that d*** crank sensor figured out and move on from there.

That all said, if someone can chime in and tell me if I have to undue what I did to get the tach trigger from the coil, that would be great!

[Ollie8974]

What 36-1 trigger wheel did you use. Ford used a 36-1 trigger wheel and sensor with the EDIS. Visit a local Pick A Part, take a look a some engines with EDIS to see how the sensors are mounted.
You might be able to use one as a direct bolt on.
If you get a sensor from a local yard. Take the connector and as much of the wire as you can get. Where the wire joins other wires, cut the tape wrap back to the EDIS box.

[dragbug]

What 36-1 trigger wheel did you use. Ford used a 36-1 trigger wheel and sensor with the EDIS. Visit a local Pick A Part, take a look a some engines with EDIS to see how the sensors are mounted.
You might be able to use one as a direct bolt on.
If you get a sensor from a local yard. Take the connector and as much of the wire as you can get. Where the wire joins other wires, cut the tape wrap back to the EDIS box.

Thanks for replying! I have the one that DIYAutotune.com sells. There is a timing cover for mustangs and or explorers that have a built in mount if I remember right. But if I use that, then I have to replace my water pump and radiator due to the reverse rotation design. From my research, it's going to require a custom mount. My metal working skills are severely lacking but I know I can make a mount, just have not had the time or resources yet.

[dragbug]

I asked this question already but never got a clear answer. I set up the MS3 to use the coil for tach signal awhile ago. Now I need to change it to use the crank wheel for tach signal. The changes on the jumper are easy enough but do I need to change how D1 and D2 are connected? Do I need to remove C30 from its current position and install in H1/Boot?

[Matt Cramer]

I'd just change the jumpers to VR input; this takes D1 and D2 out of the picture.

[dragbug]

I'd just change the jumpers to VR input; this takes D1 and D2 out of the picture.

I made the changes I needed before I got your reply but I did leave the D1 and D2 as configured for the coil. But I moved the C30 to the H1/Boot location. Do I need to get another cap to put back into the original C30 position or will it matter? You didn't mention if I should have left C30 in the C30 spot or move it to H1/Boot.

[Matt Cramer]

That is because the entire opto circuit is not being used, so its parts are unimportant.

A capacitor in H1 / Boot can make it less vulnerable to voltage spikes.

[dragbug]

That is because the entire opto circuit is not being used, so its parts are unimportant.

A capacitor in H1 / Boot can make it less vulnerable to voltage spikes.

Ahh ok cool. Thank you!

[dragbug]

Here is something else that is getting me a little confused. As good as the manual is, it lacks almost everything related to installs using a relay board. The relay board has been highly suggested as the easiest way to simplify wiring, and I highly agree with that and yet everything in the manual only shows connections without the relay board. That, in it's self is confusing. The ECU wiring shows pin 7 as the sensor ground but the relay board wiring (what I could find of it) shows pin 19 as the sensor ground. Can I assume that everything I am connecting to the relay board that uses a ground is in fact connecting to "sensor ground" on the ECU??

Speaking of relay board grounding. Where does the relay board ground to? I am seeing both engine block or battery depending on who you talk to or what you read. Even the DIYAutotune.com Nova build shows the relay board connecting directly to the battery. Can someone please give me the final answer on this or does it really mater which ground point I use for the relay board? Thanks!

[Matt Cramer]

All the ground pins go to the same point on the MS ground plane. On the relay board, pin 19 is an isolated ground. Short version - just trust the relay board sensor return pins to work.

You can ground it to either the battery or the engine block.

[dragbug]

All the ground pins go to the same point on the MS ground plane. On the relay board, pin 19 is an isolated ground. Short version - just trust the relay board sensor return pins to work.

You can ground it to either the battery or the engine block.

Awesome, thanks again!

Another question, I need to hook up my coil to the relay board so MS can control spark. I know the tach connection is used for the crank sensor when I hook it up. The manual says it connects to pin 36 on the MS. Is that S5 on the relay board?