Ford 5L hard to start

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Chocomunday
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Ford 5L hard to start

Post by Chocomunday »

Howdy.
I have a Ford 5L in a 56 Crown Vic that I ma building. It's a stroked 5L with a stack injection manifold (GT40 type). I can't use a IAC and I am having trouble starting the engine. It fires up and coughs and farts and I tickle the accelerator until it's been running for a few minutes, then it picks up and sounds sweet.
I have tweaked the WUE to around the 150% mark, fiddled with the primal pulsewidth and ASE percent adder, but it doesn't make any difference.
Before I go any further, could some of you more experienced MS gurus take a look at this (admittedly premature) MSQ file and see what's obviously wrong? I will take the time to work through the tune at a later date, but I just need to get it up and running while I finish the rest of the car.
Thanks people, much appreciated.
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Choco Munday, Technical Author, Hot Rod Handbooks
grom_e30
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Re: Ford 5L hard to start

Post by grom_e30 »

Any chance you can post a data log of the problem?
1990 bmw 320i daily driver with m20b25 ms3 sequential fuel, 380cc injectors, d585 coil near plug, home made cam sync, launch control, fan control, vss, homebrew egt logging what's next????
Chocomunday
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Re: Ford 5L hard to start

Post by Chocomunday »

Sorry, I should elaborate a bit if I need help.
I am using MS3x and EDIS8 for ignition. The engine is a brand new, built 5L Ford from a mid-90s passenger car. I used the entire drivetrain in the 56 Crown Vic.
The engine is stroked to 347 cubes, Holley Systemax aluminium heads, roller rockers and a mild cam. It should make about 350+ HP.
I have not spent much time on the engine management, the car is still in the garage while I finish off things like wiring, air con, windows, etc etc etc. I have set up the parameters for the sensors and just want to get a rough tune going for now. The only problem is that it takes about 5 - 10 minutes of starting, stalling, starting, stalling, etc until it starts to run. When I start it, it idles low but if I touch the throttle, it dies. Gradually, I can start getting revs by touching the throttle, restarting, take another stab, restart, etc until I get the thing to rev, then it takes off.





Here's the data:
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Choco Munday, Technical Author, Hot Rod Handbooks
billr
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Re: Ford 5L hard to start

Post by billr »

I see your MAP tops out at 48kPa, with engine not running. Are you really at that high altitude (19,000 ft?), or is that an issue that has to be addressed? Likewise, I'm seeing 61,000 rpm for your top engine speed; that doesn't seem likely either. It looks to me like fuel is getting cut because rpm is going way past the rev-limiter setting.
grom_e30
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Re: Ford 5L hard to start

Post by grom_e30 »

on a side note if your using an edis module you want to set your dwell type to 'fixed duty'.
1990 bmw 320i daily driver with m20b25 ms3 sequential fuel, 380cc injectors, d585 coil near plug, home made cam sync, launch control, fan control, vss, homebrew egt logging what's next????
Chocomunday
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Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:53 pm
Location: Queanbeyan, NSW, Australia
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Re: Ford 5L hard to start

Post by Chocomunday »

Thanks for the tips. I am looking beyond the base settings now that I need the car to run properly. When I decided to use the faux GT40 manifold, I didn't plan on some of the changes I had to make since straying from the more traditional 70mm throttle body.
The first thing I realised was that there were only two vacuum ports at the firewall end of the manifold. Both outlets are 1/4 NPT and they feed all throttle bodies for a good, even vacuum setting. I use one for the brakes/PCV and one for the Fuel Reg/MAP. I tried to work in a remote IAC, but if I can get away with having none, I will.

Then there's the MAT sensor placement. There really is none, unless I drill and tap a 3/8 NPT somewhere at the base of a throttle body, but I don't want to go there. Instead, I have just bolted a 3/8 NPT adapter to a spare hole in the manifold that was supposed to be a mount for a throttle cable and screwed the MAT sensor to it. There is no direct access to intake air temperature, so if the MAT readings are really screwy I might have to abandon that idea too. I'll jumper the MAT plug's pins together to see if it runs better that way.
Apart from that, I'm running green Bosch 30lb/hr injectors, factory Ford TPS, the built-in MAP in the MS3 box (supplied by DIY, thanks) and Ford factory HEGO (one only). There's no MAF any more, so I am running Speed Density. I am using EDIS 8 module and Ford factory EDIS crank sensor and wheel.

I have a cam sensor, but not running sequential just yet. I may go that way at a later date, but then I'll also probably go to digital CoP ignition and get rid of the EDIS module. I just need to get more comfortable with the existing setup before I go changing anything, although if someone has done this on a Ford V8 already and can tell me how easy it is, I'd be tempted!

Thanks again.
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Choco Munday, Technical Author, Hot Rod Handbooks
billr
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Re: Ford 5L hard to start

Post by billr »

Don't jumper the MAT sensor leads, that will make the MS think air is way-hot and lean out the fuel. "Jumper" with a suitable dummy resistor. If the 3/8" pipe is too big, there are GM temp sensors with 1/8" MPT, pretty small little devils and quite inexpensive.
Chocomunday
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Re: Ford 5L hard to start

Post by Chocomunday »

billr wrote:Don't jumper the MAT sensor leads, that will make the MS think air is way-hot and lean out the fuel. "Jumper" with a suitable dummy resistor. If the 3/8" pipe is too big, there are GM temp sensors with 1/8" MPT, pretty small little devils and quite inexpensive.
Oh, OK. I was going by the advice in the MS3 hardware manual:
Any install not using a MAT should connect the MAT input to sensor ground to prevent the reading "floating"
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Choco Munday, Technical Author, Hot Rod Handbooks
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