Ignition Setup Help with MS3Pro on Magnum

[BossHogg]

Good evening fellow Megasquirters!

I'm currently trying to start my '86 Ram Van with a freshly rebuilt 1997 5.2 Magnum V8 and I''m having issues starting the engine. Please be gentle, it's my first MS install. I'm more used to dual carbs on my VW bus and SDS on my Turbo Omni.

I've looked on this board and the dakota board, but the guide on the dakota board is for MS2, and has different names for settings, and I'm not quite sure.

I am running MS3Pro from DYIAutotune and I had installed it on the donor truck, a 1997 Dakota. Worked well for startup and idling, purring like a kitten, but now I can get it to get it running more than 30 seconds on my new engine, and won't rev whatsoever. My father, a Chrysler mechanic since the 70's, says it sounds like a badly retarded timing issue. But I'm not versed enough in the MS program to fix it....

Some changes have been made to the engine, but minor. More torquey Cam, beefier valve springs and thinner headgasket for more compression. yay.



Setup

1996 5.2 magnum,
stock pretty much everything, except a mild Comp Cam and stiffer springs to accommodate the cam.

I'm running two eagle talon coil packs, with 2 ignitors, so wasted spark . worked perfect on my test run on the dakota.

The flywheel (running the 5 speed tranny from the Dakota) is 8 evenly spaced teeth and my cam is 1 window. I've read on this forum that the Rising Edge on the crank is 5 BTDC and 0 at TDC, and the cam rising edge is 20 deg BTDC on cylinder 1 and 20 deg ATDC on cylinder #6. Firing order is 18436572.

I want to run full sequential injection, so all injectors are wired in individually and in the firing order... A-1,B-8 etc.

here's my setup in TS

Spark Mode: Toothed Wheel
Trigger Angle / Offset: 0
Ignition Input Capture: Rising Edge
Spark Output: Going High
Number of coils: Wasted Spark
Spark A connects to coil firing cyl 1-6
Spark B connects to 8-5
Spark C Connects to 4-7
Spark D connects to 3-2


Trigger wheel arrangement: Dual Wheel
Trigger Wheel Teeth: 8
Tooth #1 Angle: 0.0
Wheel speed: Crank wheel
Second trigger active on: Rising edge
And every rotation of: cam


The other setups that I have seen are using Rising + Falling on the second trigger and every rotation of Crank... my option is only poll level, am I right to assume that it means the same?

attached is my MSQ and one of the datalogs if it helps. I've played around with the timing table a bit so it's messed up, and the rest is not tuned yet, but since it fired on the dakota without much issues, I never touched it.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Please be gentle...

[elutionsdesign]

I think your Dad is correct and your tooth number 1 angle is not. Go back and re-read how to calculate it and see if that doesn't help.

[Matt Cramer]

Throw a timing light on it and confirm the Tooth #1 Angle setting is correct, first.

[BossHogg]

Duh.

Thanks a lot for this lead, but there's still something I don't understand.

I did the procedure explained in the book yesterday and entered my calculation in TS.

Tried to start it? Much better, but still would'nt start and popping in the intake did'nt catch on.

Then, in desperation, I tried changing the setting of the second trigger from Rising Edge to Fallling Edge. And BOOOM, made my muffler explode (probably because it was filled up in unburned gasoline) but it started. It runs rough, like the timing is off, but it runs. Starts very well as well!

Thing is, the magnum distributor has a pulse ring, it's a 180 degree "shutter" than activates the signal of the cam sensor. When the shutter passes in the sensor, it activates 5v signal to the PCM. It's a hall effect sensor.



Now, my newbie understanding of this , rising edge is when the shutter enters the sensors, and falling edge is when the shutter leaves the sensor. I timed everything like the shutter entering the sensor was my main timing event (rising edge). It's like my distributor is 180' off, since it's working when the shutter leaves the sensor.

New MSQ is attached.

Cranking timing is at 0, it works great! the more advance I give it, the worse it becomes.

Timing light test confirms that #1 Cylinder fires at 5 BTDC.

Any help is appreciated, there's something in my brain that does'nt fire right (like my van!) concerning this issue, can't wrap my head around it.

Thank you.

[elutionsdesign]

Now, my newbie understanding of this , rising edge is when the shutter enters the sensors, and falling edge is when the shutter leaves the sensor. I timed everything like the shutter entering the sensor was my main timing event (rising edge). It's like my distributor is 180' off, since it's working when the shutter leaves the sensor.

There are two types of Hall, those high (5V) with the trigger in front of them and those high all the other times. I always use a pin or needle to place in the connection to read the voltage so I know what's happening and when it happens. The timing light is your best friend during initial startup as Matt says. Use your fixed timing setting to hold it in place so you can match the physical motor timing to the MS fixed setting.

[BossHogg]

There are two types of Hall, those high (5V) with the trigger in front of them and those high all the other times. I always use a pin or needle to place in the connection to read the voltage so I know what's happening and when it happens. The timing light is your best friend during initial startup as Matt says. Use your fixed timing setting to hold it in place so you can match the physical motor timing to the MS fixed setting.

Thank you very much for the info, I did check that in the manual, and the chrysler FSM tells me that when the shutter passes in the window, it creates a 5v current. BUT, I will check physically that fact tonight when I get home.

Secondly, I did check the timing with my timing light. Might've threw me off though, since I'm running wasted spark (#1 fires twice in the 720' revolution of the crank, #1 and #6 in my case) and each time the TDC line aligns perfect with the 5' BTDC with the timing light.

So, if the shutter activates the 5v, that means it's rising edge? and when the shutter leaves the window it becomes falling edge? That's how I understand it.

You say "Use your fixed timing setting to hold it in place so you can match the physical motor timing to the MS fixed setting".. can you elaborate on that? Hold what in place? The timing? What is the MS fixed setting? Is it the setting I choose when I decide "use table" or fixed setting in the startup menu?

I'm sorry guys, I thought I understood igniton timing and it's relation with engine timing, but I'm having issues grasping the relationship between the physical signal events and the MS interpretation of it.

But you guys helped me a lot, it started! It's a good step forward! I'll get it someday!

[BossHogg]

Ok, I have a lead.

Racemagnum.com has a guide for the setup of MS on a magnum, and all the pertinent info.

One of the last line of the guide says

In MS, these voltage changes (refering to the cam sensor)are refered to as rising going 0-5v or falling (5-0v) wich coincidentally are the opposite of the thooth on the wheel being in proximity to the sensor.

So falling edge is when the tooth is going in the sensor. That's why it worked when I switched it around.

Thank you for your patience and not laughing too hard. I will post results later on!

[elutionsdesign]

Trust me, no one is laughing, it's hard to figure out sometimes. When I did my first sequential COP, on my own car of course, I had the firing order every way possible before I finally got it. That is where I learned to test hall sensor output. And back to your question, yes, its the fixed timing or use table setting but it sounds like you've got that figured out.

[BossHogg]

Little update for those interested....

The engine finally started and is running well, aside from quite a few sync losses (reason 17, and once in a while reason 11) Not matter what I did with the sensor calculations, it was always the same.

Turns out my crank sensor is rubbing on the flywheel!! Noticed in the composite logger that the lines looked clean enough, but once zoomed it, they were all over the place. Took off the sensor and it's casing is chewed off. It still works, but I'm pretty sure a metal flywheel rubbing against a magnet based sensor will wreck havoc on the quality of the signal!

I will modify the stock bracket (it's a stock hall effect replacement sensor) so that it's positioned away from the flywheel.

Sigh, I'll get it someday! But it did start and it's runninc decently well between sync losses events .. LOL

Will post and update (and I'm sure other questions) once that is done!

[BossHogg]

Little update for those interested!

It's running perfect! Once I changed my crank sensor and made sure it was'nt rubbing on the flywheel, it started right up and kept going. No more sync losses!

Now I've done at least 150 Miles with the van, everything is running good, tuned the AE enrichments and closed loop ide feature. Autotune is doing it's job and I'm slowly getting it to start quicker when cold (-10' celcius outside right now!) by playing with ASE and WUE

This system is a blast, once you understand how it works (And I'm pretty sure I'm not even at 20% of knowing what it can do) it's so much fun to tune.

Thank you for helping me getting there!

[prochargedmopar]

Thank you for all the info you and others have provided in this thread.
Still cruising the van around?