Boom, Out Go The Lights...

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dragbug
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Boom, Out Go The Lights...

Post by dragbug »

So I got the TBI installed tonight. Was able to finally get a some what ok warm idle going. I decided I was going to go up the road a bit with autotune on and see how it does. I started to get on it a bit and suddenly I heard a pop... I coasted to a stop and tried to start the car with no luck. After scratching my head for a minute I checked the fuses on the relay board and sure enough, one of the injector fuses blew. I put in a new one and still no start. Checked the relay board one more time and found the fuel pump wire came loose. I don't know which came first or if one caused the other but I was finally able to get it started and drove home. Attached is my msq and link to the log for that run. Evidently, you can't upload files larger than 1mb :shock: I could use some advice on my tune anyway. I know its not right yet and hoping someone can point me in the right direction.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4RbcO ... sp=sharing

That was all from last night. This morning, I need serious help with cold starts. The car starts up fine but quickly dies. After feathering the throttle and getting the car to drive a little, it will maintain idle but extremely low. The msq I posted above will be the same. I can't post a new log based on this morning because it was the drive to work and can't pull the log. The strange thing is that even once the car was up to operating temps, it isn't running as well as it did last night. The RPMs this morning at idle are between 400ish up to about 600ish.
1966 Mustang Fastback
302 HO,Trick Flow TW 170 heads, Headers/dumps, MS3
ashford
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Re: Boom, Out Go The Lights...

Post by ashford »

a few obvious things.

1. injector pwm current limiting is off, i don't know what exactly to use but i think 50-60% is close, this would explain the fuse popping.
2. no wideband and or configured wrong there is no way veal will work without it
3. iac at 60 steps at warm idle is a little high, you might need to adjust the idle screw a bit. generally gm tbi idles aroud 20 or so no load
4. duty cycle is above 100% i am sure these injectors are not big enough if you have the 60lb hr injectors(sbc size) that equates to 120# total 120/8= 15, stock ho injectors are 19lb hr and good for about 250hp or so if you have the 454 tbi it has 80'sor equivalent to 20's port injection
5. wue has been heavily modified, i have found that the default curve is very close if injector settings are close and running sd
dragbug
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Re: Boom, Out Go The Lights...

Post by dragbug »

Glad you mentioned the wideband. It is hooked up and works perfectly in TS. I am at a loss as to why it is showing like it does in the log files. Any idea? I made some changes based on your recommendations. I won't be able to test them out until later. I looked for anything that might cause the WB to show incorrectly in the log but I can't find anything. It has in the past shown correctly in the log so I don't know why it doesn't now. Hopefully someone can help with that. Like I said, it shows fine in TS and on MSDroid.
1966 Mustang Fastback
302 HO,Trick Flow TW 170 heads, Headers/dumps, MS3
dragbug
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Posts: 252
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Location: Nellis AFB, Nevada

Re: Boom, Out Go The Lights...

Post by dragbug »

Ok, attached is the msq and log files for a quick test based on ashford's recommendations. Still not figured out the AFR reading issue yet.
1966 Mustang Fastback
302 HO,Trick Flow TW 170 heads, Headers/dumps, MS3
slow_hemi6
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Re: Boom, Out Go The Lights...

Post by slow_hemi6 »

Under Tools> Calibrate AFR Table what have you selected?
Find the Manuals up top under Quick links: Manuals. :RTFM:
Cheers Luke
dragbug
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Re: Boom, Out Go The Lights...

Post by dragbug »

slow_hemi6 wrote:Under Tools> Calibrate AFR Table what have you selected?
Innovate LC-1/LC-2 Default
1966 Mustang Fastback
302 HO,Trick Flow TW 170 heads, Headers/dumps, MS3
dragbug
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Posts: 252
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Re: Boom, Out Go The Lights...

Post by dragbug »

Anyone else have any suggestions?
1966 Mustang Fastback
302 HO,Trick Flow TW 170 heads, Headers/dumps, MS3
dragbug
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Posts: 252
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:53 am
Location: Nellis AFB, Nevada

Re: Boom, Out Go The Lights...

Post by dragbug »

With the last msq I wasn't able to get the car to run no matter what I did. I finally went back to my original msq and the car started right up. I did turn on PWM Current Limiting but left it on default value since no one has chimed in yet with what would be the correct settings. I think the biggest issue with the last tune was the %ReqFuel. If i changed the injector flow to 60# as ashford suggested, the car just ran like poo and I had to feather the throttle just to keep it alive. If I messed with the fuel table at all it would go into a major surge. With the injector flow set back to 40# it settled down again. Am I setting the required fuel wrong? Attached are the current settings and last log. Oh and this log was run directly from TunerStudio and proves my WB is hooked up and reading correctly. It seems like pulling the logs off the SD card is when the AFR reading is weird.
1966 Mustang Fastback
302 HO,Trick Flow TW 170 heads, Headers/dumps, MS3
ashford
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Re: Boom, Out Go The Lights...

Post by ashford »

just changing required fuel of course is going to make something that ran well run bad. going from 40 to 60 roughly reduced all fueling by 30%. change your req fuel back to 6.6 and multiply the whole ve table by 1.5 and it should be about the same as before. the 60# setting should be the correct one(assuming this tbi came from a 5.7)


another thing is these injectors have a really short dead time if i remember if you change the dead time this will have a greater affect on areas of the ve table where the pw is low than when it is high.

for finding the pwm for current limiting reduce the pwm till it affects the way it runs then add about 10 to it.
dragbug
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Re: Boom, Out Go The Lights...

Post by dragbug »

ashford wrote:just changing required fuel of course is going to make something that ran well run bad. going from 40 to 60 roughly reduced all fueling by 30%. change your req fuel back to 6.6 and multiply the whole ve table by 1.5 and it should be about the same as before. the 60# setting should be the correct one(assuming this tbi came from a 5.7)


another thing is these injectors have a really short dead time if i remember if you change the dead time this will have a greater affect on areas of the ve table where the pw is low than when it is high.

for finding the pwm for current limiting reduce the pwm till it affects the way it runs then add about 10 to it.
Ya, this TBI is from a 5.7. I will make the adjustments when I get a chance tonight. Thanks for helping!
1966 Mustang Fastback
302 HO,Trick Flow TW 170 heads, Headers/dumps, MS3
dragbug
Experienced MS/Extra'er
Posts: 252
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:53 am
Location: Nellis AFB, Nevada

Re: Boom, Out Go The Lights...

Post by dragbug »

ashford wrote:just changing required fuel of course is going to make something that ran well run bad. going from 40 to 60 roughly reduced all fueling by 30%. change your req fuel back to 6.6 and multiply the whole ve table by 1.5 and it should be about the same as before. the 60# setting should be the correct one(assuming this tbi came from a 5.7)


another thing is these injectors have a really short dead time if i remember if you change the dead time this will have a greater affect on areas of the ve table where the pw is low than when it is high.

for finding the pwm for current limiting reduce the pwm till it affects the way it runs then add about 10 to it.
Your suggestion worked out well! I have the car idling pretty well now I think. Still lots of tuning to do. My car absolutely hates any AFR above 13. Especially when just cruising around at a low fuel load. I get a lot of lean popping. Anyway, thanks for the advice. I will try to post up another log after I get my son to bed.
1966 Mustang Fastback
302 HO,Trick Flow TW 170 heads, Headers/dumps, MS3
ashford
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Re: Boom, Out Go The Lights...

Post by ashford »

you might want to try 8 squirts alternating or 4 squirt simultaneous. if this results with an overly rich condition then reduce the dead time.
dragbug
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Re: Boom, Out Go The Lights...

Post by dragbug »

I can give it a shot but I think it is my car. Over the last couple months it has been acting like it was running lean. Popping and just over all running odd. I had to pull timing out a couple degrees to get it to drive right. This was all with carb and before I put MS3 in to control timing. But I can give this a try anyway. I now have a decent base tune I can go back to if needed.
1966 Mustang Fastback
302 HO,Trick Flow TW 170 heads, Headers/dumps, MS3
dragbug
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Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:53 am
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Re: Boom, Out Go The Lights...

Post by dragbug »

So here is the latest msq and log file with the most recent changes. If anyone has nothing better to do, Please check them out and let me know if anything sticks out that I need to change. Thank you!
1966 Mustang Fastback
302 HO,Trick Flow TW 170 heads, Headers/dumps, MS3
dragbug
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Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:53 am
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Re: Boom, Out Go The Lights...

Post by dragbug »

How accurate is VE generator? Just out of curiosity, I input the information specific for my engine and the VE table generated was close to double what I am running now. The car idles but really rich. Also in my above log, if I am reading it right, my injector duty cycle is well above 100%. I know these injectors are not to big for this little motor. What setting am I missing that might put this more inline?
1966 Mustang Fastback
302 HO,Trick Flow TW 170 heads, Headers/dumps, MS3
dragbug
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Re: Boom, Out Go The Lights...

Post by dragbug »

In addition to my above questions, what is a better approach to a good VE Table? Use VE generator or VE analyzer? Or both?
1966 Mustang Fastback
302 HO,Trick Flow TW 170 heads, Headers/dumps, MS3
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Re: Boom, Out Go The Lights...

Post by jsmcortina »

The VE table generator provides a rough starting point that may be helpful.

After that you MUST tune it - using a combination of hand tuning and the automated tools if available.

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dragbug
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Re: Boom, Out Go The Lights...

Post by dragbug »

Thanks James. When would the VE analyzer be useful?
1966 Mustang Fastback
302 HO,Trick Flow TW 170 heads, Headers/dumps, MS3
dragbug
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Posts: 252
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:53 am
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Re: Boom, Out Go The Lights...

Post by dragbug »

Well, I didn't get any feedback on my last log and settings so I attached a new one. I made some changes and think its coming around but I could certainly use some more advice from the pros. Thank you!
1966 Mustang Fastback
302 HO,Trick Flow TW 170 heads, Headers/dumps, MS3
billr
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Re: Boom, Out Go The Lights...

Post by billr »

Was that last VE map created by the "VE generator"? It still looks rather odd to me. Summarize your present status: won't start, or starts but won't idle peacefully, or won't pull a load... Sorry, I don't fuss with any log files but the simple .msl and .cvs ones that come from TS.
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