no VR crank signal / sequential / R32 VW

[billr]

Then it seems likely your readings are in volts. However, I gotta ask... was there any indication that the meter has "auto-ranging"? Try reading voltage applied for the MS power (both DC and AC) while cranking. I am expecting that to remain pretty steady DC and near-zero AC. I don't think it is normal for the VR input on MS to generate an AC voltage, and am looking for more clues.

Edit: Work some more on producing run and tooth logs requested. Data will get recorded, even if the rpm is "zero". Do that logging in TunerStudio, so that all data fields get logged (you have to specifially turn them on/off when logging on an SD card)

[4DPerformance]

Are you certain the sensor isn't a hall type sensor?

You sure the 3 wires on the sensor aren't live, earth, signal?

Be strange to see a vr sensor on a r32 engine IMO most modern stuff is hall or digital sensor now

[DaveEFI]

It seems to be different every time I do it. I just ran it with a fresh battery
VR+/- wires coming from the MS box
Ignition off: .16 DC volts and 0 AC
Ignition on: 3.06 DC and 5.3 AC
Cranking: .10 DC and 0 AC

Right. As it happens I have an MS2 V3 on the bench, so have done some measurements with a VR sensor connected.

VR positive (measured at Tach Select which is connected to VR in) to ground.

5mV (0.005v) DC - effectively zero.
10mV (0.010v) AC - again effectively zero, probably just induced hum from the surrounding electrics on the bench.

I'd not expect to see any DC as the only 'pull up' in circuit is R51 - 1M0 - which isn't going to do much across the low impedance of the VR sensor.

Any appreciable AC present - like the 5.3v you've measured suggests something is very wrong.

[billr]

Dave, how about with the sensor disconnected, what is the DC bias on the MS input, is AC still near-zero?

[mattgreeneva]

Then it seems likely your readings are in volts. However, I gotta ask... was there any indication that the meter has "auto-ranging"? Try reading voltage applied for the MS power (both DC and AC) while cranking. I am expecting that to remain pretty steady DC and near-zero AC. I don't think it is normal for the VR input on MS to generate an AC voltage, and am looking for more clues.

Edit: Work some more on producing run and tooth logs requested. Data will get recorded, even if the rpm is "zero". Do that logging in TunerStudio, so that all data fields get logged (you have to specifially turn them on/off when logging on an SD card)

I really wish I knew more of what you are talking about. I read and read and read each time you post something and I still don't fully understand. I am not good with electrical terminology at all which is why I paid to have the box made for me. I have done several motor swaps using an OEM harness and I know enough about it that I can figure out how to run everything.

I will keep trying to get tooth logs. I am going to see if I can find a youtube video showing me step by step

Are you certain the sensor isn't a hall type sensor?

You sure the 3 wires on the sensor aren't live, earth, signal?

Be strange to see a vr sensor on a r32 engine IMO most modern stuff is hall or digital sensor now

This I am certain of. Definitely a VR sensor

Any appreciable AC present - like the 5.3v you've measured suggests something is very wrong.

What do you suggest is wrong? Something internal to the MS or I have something else hooked up wrong?

[mattgreeneva]

Unless I am doing it wrong.. I keep getting the same results
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-4b7l_1peA

[billr]

Try not to get frustrated and give up. We are here to help, and if things aren't clear we need to try teaching you in a different way. You said this unit was "made for you". What vendor, have you contacted them for help? Is this a SMD V3.57 mainboard, or a through-hole V3.0?

Edit: It really seems like you are getting a significant AC voltage out of the "tachin" input, when the sensor is disconnected. If you disconnect everything from the MS except power/ground, do you still get about 2.8 VAC out of that input (mainboard DB37 pin 24)?

[DaveEFI]

Dave, how about with the sensor disconnected, what is the DC bias on the MS input, is AC still near-zero?

On my Fluke 179, I get a reading of 4.5v DC and 22.5 mV AC measured at Tach Select and ground at the proto area.

I mention the meter make since with the bias being supplied by a 1M0 resistor, the actual DC reading will depend on the input impedance of the meter.

My scope shows the AC (only) to be mains hum, but measures it at about 1mV P to P plus some lower level rubbish. All probably from my power supply, etc. But rather academic.

[DaveEFI]

As I see it there could be two problems.

1) The VR sensor and or wiring from it to MS.

2) MS itself.

1) Unplug the MS and measure the VR sensor at the DB37 connector. It should read approx 300-1000 ohms.
Now measure between each VR pin (plus and minus) at the DB37 to car chassis. You should get no reading - ie no connection. The VR cable screen should be connected to ground - but only at the MS end. It should be insulated at the VR end.

2) If that checks out OK, the problem is likely within MS (or software settings). The easiest way to check the MS is to remove it and work on the bench. And use a JimStim to generate the correct pulse sequence you'd get from your VR sensor/trigger wheel. You may well have to adjust R56 to get the Stim to read and also when later installed in the car using the VR sensor.

Since the MS was made for you - did whoever made it have a JimStim and test it after building? Might be worth taking a pic of the PCB just to see if anything is obviously wrong.

[mattgreeneva]

Try not to get frustrated and give up. We are here to help, and if things aren't clear we need to try teaching you in a different way. You said this unit was "made for you". What vendor, have you contacted them for help? Is this a SMD V3.57 mainboard, or a through-hole V3.0?

Edit: It really seems like you are getting a significant AC voltage out of the "tachin" input, when the sensor is disconnected. If you disconnect everything from the MS except power/ground, do you still get about 2.8 VAC out of that input (mainboard DB37 pin 24)?

Frustration is my life. But I wont give up. All else fails I will stand on a street corner with a sign and find a local MS tuner here that will come look at it for me. K&P Tuned made it for me. I have contacted Paul and he gets back to me when he is not busy. We have not discussed anything other than the pot's that hasn't already been covered here.

I looked on his page and he sells v3 and 3.57 so I am guessing one of those. I have never heard of v3.57 until it was brought up on here so I assume its just v3.

And if you mean disconnect everything as in all the sensors that will take a while but I can try it if that's something you really need to know. If its a shot in the dark I would prefer not to have to pull my engine bay back apart to get to everything.

As I see it there could be two problems.

1) The VR sensor and or wiring from it to MS.

2) MS itself.

1) Unplug the MS and measure the VR sensor at the DB37 connector. It should read approx 300-1000 ohms.
Now measure between each VR pin (plus and minus) at the DB37 to car chassis. You should get no reading - ie no connection. The VR cable screen should be connected to ground - but only at the MS end. It should be insulated at the VR end.

2) If that checks out OK, the problem is likely within MS (or software settings). The easiest way to check the MS is to remove it and work on the bench. And use a JimStim to generate the correct pulse sequence you'd get from your VR sensor/trigger wheel. You may well have to adjust R56 to get the Stim to read and also when later installed in the car using the VR sensor.

Since the MS was made for you - did whoever made it have a JimStim and test it after building? Might be worth taking a pic of the PCB just to see if anything is obviously wrong.

If those are the two problems then the MS is what is wrong. I have taken the time to troubleshoot a VR sensor before on a stock vw that would not start. I am well versed on it and I know what I am doing in that aspect of things. The VR sensor is fine. It is putting out enough voltage to be picked up. As for the wiring its possible I could have that wrong.. but in this case.. It is two wires and a shield. I think I have that under control.

EDIT: I for sure don't have JimStim. If you know of a way to formulate a crank signal that would be helpful. I saw a video somewhere a guy did it with a drill but didnt say how. Made it seem common knowledge


I appreciate everyone helping me. I contacted a friend of mine yesterday that has MS1,2 and 3 all on seperate vw's ranging from 87-05 and he says the way I have it is correct. He said something about the Pots and then the box is not right. I dont know kptuned rules for opening the box so once he gets back to me I will see if i can find these pots everyone speaks of and follow the tutorial I found on MS website for adjusting them.

[DaveEFI]

Ah - right. There are adjustable pots on the VR input to allow it to be used with pretty well any sensor. And even VR sensors are not all the same. I sort of assumed you'd already had a play with them - you won't damage anything by doing so.

Generally in my experience it's only R56 which needs adjusting. That is situated at the bottom of the PCB about half way along just above the (C) 2005 writing. Usually either blue or grey and has a brass screw head on the top. Turn it 7 turns clockwise and see if you now get an RPM reading.

[billr]

"And if you mean disconnect everything as in all the sensors that will take a while but I can try it if that's something you really need to know. If its a shot in the dark I would prefer not to have to pull my engine bay back apart to get to everything. "

That really should be a trivial task! Unplug the connector(s) right at the MS case, take the MS over to a bench, and connect 12V power to it with just two pins. It is always prudent to put a small (1A) fuse in the power feed. It is essential to determine if that AC on the tachin is from your wiring or the MS itself. If it is from the MS, then it should go right back to the vendor. They, at least, owe you timely responses, not just "when he is not busy".

However, I agree that you must get comfy with opening the case to adjust those pots. While it is open, look for the PCB version or take a picture for us to identify it.

[mattgreeneva]

for some reason none of 30 Philip head screw drivers fit these screws (enough to not round it out)... So I will be taking a trip to some stores today to see if I can find a magic Philips head.

[DaveEFI]

They're nominally Posidriv heads. If you have to buy one, go for a PZ1 size.

[mattgreeneva]

They're nominally Posidriv heads. If you have to buy one, go for a PZ1 size.

Thank you for the info.

After going to lowes and searching shelf by shelf and not seeing "posidriv" anywhere I asked and pretty much got told im an idiot and such things do not exist.. 2 associates and 10 minutes later I am standing in the isle cutting open packages to find the mythical PZ1.

I found it.. opened the box.. It says MSV3.0 on it.. snapped pics. Now what. I assume the two tiny bronze screws are what I need to turn? Which one and which direction

[mattgreeneva]

Generally in my experience it's only R56 which needs adjusting. That is situated at the bottom of the PCB about half way along just above the (C) 2005 writing. Usually either blue or grey and has a brass screw head on the top. Turn it 7 turns clockwise and see if you now get an RPM reading.

Following these instructions I still have no rpm reading

I know it has been covered but let me ask this question and get input from someone.

VR Sensor coming from the car 3 wires. Black Yellow and Shield. Black reads nothing ever. Yellow reads AC Voltage when cranking.

What do you do with those 3 wires?

Yellow goes where
Black goes where
Shield goes where

MS wires coming out are a white vr+ and a black vr- and a shield. Same question
vr+ goes where
vr- goes where
shield goes where

Thanks.. I am tired of switching it and trying all different ways. I just want to know the for sure 100% correct and only way to run it so I can fix the fray wires and solder everything together how it should be.

[DaveEFI]

There seem to be as many VR wiring colours as VR sensors. The usual answer is if it doesn't work connected one way round, try the other way.

But it's looking more and more that you've got a fault on the VR input circuit.

It's not going to be easy to work on the MS on the car. It would make sense to buy a JimStim, so you have a means of testing on the bench. You could sell it when done with it. Or simply send to the MS off for testing.

[billr]

"Yellow reads AC Voltage when cranking. "

When making that reading one meter probe is to the YEL wire, but where is the other probe; isn't it to the BLK wire? How are you testing the BLK wire when you get "nothing", where is the other probe connected?

That is a through-hole V3.0 mainboard, built from a kit by your vendor. There may be some errors on it. For most VR applications both those pots (yes, little brass screws on gray components on the mainboard) are turned fully CCW. Turn them CCW 20 turns, or until you hear/feel a "click" and they will be fully CCW. You can not hurt them by turning too much (in either direction). That's all in the manual, read up some more if I haven't been clear...

[mattgreeneva]

Yeah I did read that they were clutched and I have studied up on them.

Just to be fun I pulled the sensor out and ran it over the writing in my ratchet and got some RPM out of it. It took a few times and it wasn't consistent... So I ordered a new sensor. I don't know why it "semi" worked out of the car but I am guessing maybe its worn down a little or I don't know. So once I get a new sensor in I will try it out. It was a clear sign to me that the MS was trying to read a signal and the crank sensor wasn't relaying it well enough.

Any thoughts on that or is it normal? The sensor worked on DTA.. I actually bought this motor as a swap in a running car on DTA but the wiring was sloppy and not much cable to work with and it was frayed and it didn't run very good blah blah blah

I figured maybe the running problems it had before were bad crank signal.

[billr]

Sorry, I don't know the term "DTA". Is there a make/model/PN for that sensor? Maybe somebody can confirm that 750 ohms for the coil is good or bad. How about the wheel, I know it is a 60-2 from your .msq, but what is OD and how thick? Maybe some pictures of the sensor, wheel, and how they are positioned would help. If you have another sensor already on the way, then you may as well wait until you try that before we go on.