Ford Sig. PIP TFI with CCD | trouble

[stefanst]

Vehicle: 1964 F100
Engine: 5.7l Ford from '97 F250
Injectors are wired for seq. injection on MS3X
SPOUT is wired to MS3 Tach signal
Distributor is adjusted to 10* BTDC with SPOUT unplugged

The problem is I can't get it to run set to trigger on falling edge. Even with SPOUT unplugged. No matter what the trigger offset angle. It won't trigger at all.
Set to rising edge and trigger offset at 55* gets it running, but with jumpy rpm signal. Fuel works fine, I can set ignition angle, but rpms jump around. And it runs worse than with SPOUT unplugged, presumably because timing is off for the other 7 cylinders when the trigger for cyl1 is off by a few degrees from the others.

Also things don't appear to be very reproducible. I could swear that I had it running with falling edge (not well) and adjusting offset by a few degrees killed the engine. Adjusting it back to where I was resulted in no trigger. Another time I had it running on rising edge, but had to set the trigger offset to 35* for some reason in order to get cyl1 to 10* BTDC. After changing some other settings I had to set it back to 55*.

Changing the dwell time also doesn't seem to do diddly. Even though I have confirmed that it is a CCD motor through the engine schematic (it has an IDM line).

Tooth log of rising edge trigger attached.

Somebody give me a sanity check please!

[Matt Cramer]

It definitely needs to use rising edge to get a stable signal. Can you post a copy of your MSQ and a data log of an attempted start on rising edge?

[stefanst]

Here is the MSQ and a tooth log with trigger set to rising edge.
Can't get a trigger log at all when it's set to rising edge- all I get is 0 bytes.

EDIT: Misnomer on the file-name. It's rising edge of course. Bit of a 'doh' moment when naming it.

[jamies]

SPOUT or PIP??

PIP signal ---> ecu TACH (pin 24)

ecu SPARK A ------> SPOUT

[Matt Cramer]

Can you post a normal data log as well as the tooth log?

What if you change spark output to Going Low?

[stefanst]

I tried spark output going low, but no success. Not surprising, since it isn't even seeing a trigger -> no spark output.

I attached my schematic and a normal log (falling edge) for clarification . Spark output from MS3 is TACHO signal.
It's been a while since I built this unit, so my memory is a bit foggy....

[Matt Cramer]

What if you change the spark mode to "Log crank and cam" and make a composite log of an attempted start?

[stefanst]

MS was set to 'falling edge'. Car was running, but still no good.
Switched to "Log crank and cam". Tried to take composite -> No output: "No data was recorded".
Took tooth log (see attached). Looks the same as before.

Now comes the kicker! Switched the spark mode back to 'Basic' and the engine won't fire. No sync.
I had not changed anything else! Just changed spark mode from 'basic' to 'log crank and cam' and back. All settings were back to where they were before.

So I changed capture to 'rising edge' and it fires right up. But everything else is like before: offset angle is still 55 degrees.
RPM signal is still erratic. Comp and tooth log look just like before with capture set to 'falling edge'. MSL and comp log are attached.

[jamies]

what circuit are you using in the MS for the trigger
If possible, setup and use the VR circuit as per the instruction manual

These settings (although are from MS2) work perfectly with ford TFI so try these settings and see how you get on.
It may pay to disconnect SPOUT completely and get it running with 10* base timing, to ensure the module, and coil etc are all working ok. if it wont run with SPOUT disconnected then you may have other issues compounding the problem.

ms2_tfi.jpg

[stefanst]

The trigger circuit is working since I'm always getting a tooth log that makes sense. That can't really be the problem.
It's running reasonably well with the SPOUT unplugged on the 10* base timing, and I can adjust the timing with the SPOUT plugged in. But it's not running right, because we're triggering on the wrong edge which causes spiking RPM readings and timing variations between cylinders.
Since so many parameters rely on RPMs, bad RPM readings cause all kinds of trouble. And cylinders not all firing with the same timing creates all kinds of other issues of course.

[jamies]

with spout disconnected set your base timing to 10 degrees and lock the distributor and leave it alone.

reconnect spout

if your triggering from the 'wrong edge' then you will need to alter the trigger offset to something other than 10* to get it back to physical 10* on the balancer
if your on the right edge then you can set and not need to change the trigger angle at 10* for it to run correctly
use the trigger logger to ensure all the teeth are the same 'size' if the wrong edge is selected there will be one or two longer teeth. you can even do this with spout disconnected.

[stefanst]

with spout disconnected set your base timing to 10 degrees and lock the distributor and leave it alone.

reconnect spout

if your triggering from the 'wrong edge' then you will need to alter the trigger offset to something other than 10* to get it back to physical 10* on the balancer
if your on the right edge then you can set and not need to change the trigger angle at 10* for it to run correctly
use the trigger logger to ensure all the teeth are the same 'size' if the wrong edge is selected there will be one or two longer teeth. you can even do this with spout disconnected.

That's what I've done and that's why I have to run an offset of 55* and that's why I have one long and one short tooth. But it won't trigger of the proper edge.

[jamies]

are you using OPTO or VR trigger circuit.... i recommend you use VR as per the manual it has always worked fine for me.

[stefanst]

are you using OPTO or VR trigger circuit.... i recommend you use VR as per the manual it has always worked fine for me.

Yes I am using VR. Again, the circuit seems to work just fine, since we're getting a tooth log every time.

EDIT: I looked at my documentation. Looks like I'm using the Hall/Opto circuit as per the manual http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/TFI.htm with the 1k resistor mod.

[stefanst]

Hi everybody,

I was trying again to get a log with 'falling edge'. Nothing. Then I upgraded the FW to 1.34. Still nothing. Tried again and finally got a composite signal. But it took about ten seconds of cranking before the signal showed up at all. It coughed a few times as if trying to start, but no real ignition. This was with SPOUT unplugged, so the timing was set to 10* BTDC by the TFI. The non-start would therefore have to be fuel related.
Composite log attached. Any ideas? Why does it take ten seconds before coming up with a composite log? Tooth log is instantaneous. Why no start after it synchs? Why is the engine speeding up and slowing down during cranking with no-start?
Also managed to capture a 'Log Crak and Cam' with falling edge selected. File attached.

Thanks!

Stefan

[jamies]

have you adjusted r52 / r56 as per the instructions? looks like some erroneous teeth in the logs

[jamies]

turn your noise filter off......

set it to 0 , off, off, off, off

you have it on 9 on off on off!

[stefanst]

Here's today's progress (all is done with SPOUT unplugged, so MS has no influence on igntion- only oin fuel):

• Turned all the noise filtering off, but still can't get a decent trigger with falling edge.
• Verified ignition input circuit: using VRIN to TACHSELECT and VROUT to TSEL
• Took some more logs (see attachments)

Looking at the tooth logs, capture always set to falling edge, I see the following:

• Ignition set to 'log crank and cam' I get 6 normal pulses, 1 short, 1 long. 6 normal, 1 short, 1 long in perpetuity
• Ignition set to 'basic', the engine coughs and sputters, almost starts. And the tooth times vary wildly, almost looks like false readings, but since the RPMs change due to coughing and sputtering, I'm not sure if those teeth are false
• Taking a composite log with 'log crank and cam' works fine as well. 6 normal, 1 short, 1 long
• Taking a composite log with 'basic' looks like we're possibly getting false teeth again

Can somebody please confirm, if I should even see the 6 normal, 1 short, 1 long when setting capture is set to 'falling edge' under 'log crank and cam'? I would have thought that I should see equal length teeth with that. I see the same pattern with the capture set to 'rising edge'.

[jsmcortina]

With "Log crank and cam" you see all edges of the raw signal - the capture edge has no effect.

James

[stefanst]

If I understand things correctly, the PIP signal is a 12V square wave that is conditioned by the VRIN circuit down to an inverted 5V square wave. Considering that the PIP already gives us a square wave, we could probably just use a resistor and a zener-diode, but the VRIN circuit will work too.

If this is correct, then my drawing below should be correct too. In this case, if I trigger on the proper edge (rising in real life, falling in MS settings), I should get equal time differences on my tooth-logger signal. I know I'm wrong somewhere, but can't figure it out for the life of me.....