Tired of crank trigger and cam sync issues

[jeffmarsh750]

Here is a run of a clean run but the previous 2 runs had sync loss issues and shut down after burn out. This clean run shows the rpm drop at 58.718 seconds and that is impossible to happen real world.The engine can not drop 600 rpm in less than a tenth of a second and re-gain 1000rpm in a tenth. It also use to re-set the nos timers and I am thinking it is all related. I see many people on here fighting sync loss reason 2 . What will it take to fix this. I will buy the best sensors made for crank and cam, whatever it takes. I can no longer recommend these ecu's to friends if this can not be resolved. Every bike I have installed these on has had some sort of sync loss issue, multiple times. Is it because the bike motors rev to quick and the ecu can't keep up ? most act up when they hit the 2 step. In the previous run of the logged bike above during the start of the burn out the tire was really wet, the rpm shot straight to the rev limit, it popped and shut off. This is the PRO unit. I never had these issues with the Haltech but it had other issues that were unacceptable. Any Ideas any one ?

[billr]

Post the .msq file, tell us what kind of wheels and sensors you are using. If this info has already been posted in other threads, post a link so we don't have to search for it.

Edit: Are you sure about this?

"The engine can not drop 600 rpm in less than a tenth of a second and re-gain 1000rpm in a tenth."

I am routinely logging +/- 5000 to 8000 rpm/sec with a BBC V-8 and stock "twisted" crank. I would think your bike engine would rev even quicker.

[jeffmarsh750]

my msq wont do any body any good. Besides I don't like displaying my tune up info online. I am looking for reccomendations on crank and cam sensors or a signal converter box or something that will make the input trigger perfect. On the rpm drop in the log above if the clutch is locked up and it actually did what the data says it did the wheel speed would have dropped. Also the shaft speed 1 doesn't start working untill 3rd gear but vss1 and vss1 ms works from the hit ( all three channels use the same sensor input) and the map at the beginning of the run has a big downward spike and the injector duty cycle follows. Think that can probably not be fixed, but don't know what it is, its a lot of weird random stuff like that and when the crank trigger does it it's not good. Will try 1 more larger diameter wheel setup and see if that works.

[billr]

"my msq wont do any body any good."

It is generally not for our sake that the tune and run log files are requested, it it to help you. My experience and experiments indicate that the standard V3.0 tachin circuit and a VR sensor can work fine up towards 17K rpm (maybe higher, I stopped there), but the sensor size must be appropriate for the wheel tooth size. How "tired" are you of these problems, tired enough to help us help you?

[jeffmarsh750]

Ok, you got me ! When I get home I will post the msq and 1 more log of a botched run and trigger or sync loss. How do I post previous threads to this one and if that can be done I will add those in too.
Thanks, Jeff

[LAV1000]

These are the hardest things to get spot on.
First try to get the datasheet of this sensor.
Check out fabricator wheel recommandations and RPM.
Check out the (screened) cable routings and connections, screen only at MS unit connected to sensor ground.
Don't instal this cables paralell to ignition or injector cables.
I know its a bike and space is limmited

When plugs/coil missfire they can act up as a sync loss aspecially the high energy systems.
Make sure that there is a good groundpad to the engine, don't use the frame for this.
Keep the ignition power wires short and take a bigger core wire.

On this setup I would use Hall sensor with internal pullup resistors, less noise sensitive.
Yes, and all the earlier mentioned stuff.

On the "delta rpm/sec" I don't know how much the MS unit can take.

Keep MS unit and coils as far apart as possible.
Keep battery and coils close, battery is also an huge capacitor so it acts as a noise reducer.

try to read the manual on groundconnections.

[jeffmarsh750]

LOG0118.MS3

LOG0118.MS3

LOG0118.MS3

LOG0118.MS3

OK, here you go, if you all can figure this out with an msq more power to you. Log 118 is previous to the 119 above, the bike shut off when I popped the clutch and exploded like a sonic boom. This is what blows up NOS bikes and brakes crankshafts. This streched my drive chain 10 turns on the adjuster. This is BS. Should not happen and it does not happen on a dyno. See the quick accell rate of engine RPM at the hit, that is what pisses off the crank sensor, it never hit the rev limiter and the announcer for the track thought I was done, nope just try it again next round and it worked. Log 117 it popped in the burnout box and then shut off we had to restart and just bumped the start lights as it was a bye run. Here's the deal about noise and electrical issues for the Bikes. MSD ignition and Dyna ignition systems do not have these miss fires and shut off problems, so it is not my wiring or ground routings. I could bolt on an MSD MC4 and a mechanical fuel injection system and it will NOT explode on the line and shut off.

[racingmini_mtl]

Have you ever tried to use a non-missing tooth crank wheel? If the issue is a too quick change in RPM, the non-missing tooth wheel will be a lot more tolerant as it doesn't have to find a missing tooth but simply relies on the cam tooth to find tooth #1.

Note this is a rather generic comment because I haven't looked through your logs.

Jean

[jeffmarsh750]

Yes, tried a non missing 8 and 12 tooth with cam and that makes it worse when a sync loss occurs as it must find cam to re-trigger.

[billr]

How do I open that .MS3 file-format in TS?

[ashford]

How do I open that .MS3 file-format in TS?

its a sd log, you need to load his msq in ts and convert it.

im no tuner for bikes but if this was in a car i would have to say that is a horrible tune, timing is pretty much static, fuel table is all the same no mater boost level, outside boost everything is the same number, decel fuel cut is at 50%, no ae, mat table is zeroed, nitrous set to come on at 5% throttle, wue zeroed(it appears you have no clt sensor), spark duration at 3ms.

[billr]

The OP was reluctant to post the tune, I think those VE and spark tables may have been faked to keep the heart of his tune secret. So, I would have to save each of those .ms3 log files someplace, then load his tune and convert them one-by-one and re-save to open in MSL outside of the forum? No thanks, I'll wait for .msl files to be posted in this thread so I can open them simply as I go through the thread.

[kjones6039]

Certainly lends a lot of drama to the forum. Excuse me gang, but I'm gonna take my nap now...............

[jeffmarsh750]

Those are the actual tables. This runs on methanol with Moran injectors. It runs 6.60 @ 203mph. If you look at the logs for timing and duty cycle you can see the tables are actually the ones in use. All it needs to do is idle, a burn out, go on the 2 step, and run full throttle. I leave the NOS tables active to trim fuel and timing by time if needed.

[billr]

Well, thanks for not getting offended because I don't want to bother converting those files. Sorry, too, if I irritated Ken. One constructive suggestion is that more teeth on the crank wheel may help. I know that probably isn't easy to do, would require a special wheel and sensor to fit in the case, but I expect this bike isn't exactly a "low budget" project. I'm pretty sure that more teeth is better, less change in the tooth-period between each "update".

Edit: Have your tried both VR and Hall sensors for the crank? I believe VR are more reliable for higher rpm. On either, the wheel tooth size must be reasonably matched to the sensor, especially VR where the magnetic pole sizes vary considerably with the sensor size. Is the sensor bracket "shielding" the magnetic field? Some sensors are OK with a ferrous bracket surrounding the tip of the sensor, others are not. Details on the sensor and wheel, plus some pix, may help us see something.

[jeffmarsh750]

No offense taken. Part of the reason for not wanting to post is because of my tables, but hey, it works and easy to tune. I am interested in the Idea of adding teeth to keep less time between events. These are my other 2 options.Either a 12-1 or 36-1 The 8 tooth is on the bike and the reason for wanting less teeth was that it is easier to place a cam trigger between the teeth and changing lobe centers and motors it makes it easier to go from 1 to another without changes in settings. Also not one high revving motorcycle that I know of uses more than a 24-2 tooth wheel but they are mounted on a 5" stator wheel. My old school bike also has more crankshaft deflection, as it is a roller bearing crank. A smaller wheel diameter produces less deflection. The threaded DIY hall sensor seemed to work better with the 8-1 tooth setup but it allways lost sync on the cam with that sensor.It all ways worked without the cam sensor plugged in. So sometimes I don't know whether it is a sync loss from the cam or crank sensor.

[grom_e30]

my bike runs a 24-2 on the crank its about 2 1/3 inches diameter wheel with a vr sensor and a single tooth with a vr sensor on the cam, i covered maybe 8000 miles on it and the only time i would get the odd sync loss event was during cranking, was only a road bike no turbo or funny gas but it would see 14,500 rpm without any loss all the time i could even hold it on the limiter at those revs with any sync issues. im using a microsquirt but it uses the max based vr setup just like the ms3 pro i had to use the shunt resistors to get above 12k but after that never had an issue.

[billr]

I'm wondering about the shape of the wheel teeth, as well as the number. I believe you will get a better signal (from VR, at least) with a "50:50" ratio between teeth and the adjacent valleys, like the darker wheel shown to the right in the second picture.

[jeffmarsh750]

Since I know for a fact that MSD and Dyna ignition systems work I will try their crank trigger plate with two magnets and one sensor, I know they use 2 sensors but don't think the MS supports a 4-2 wheel with 2 sensors. If this works I will then peruse another multi tooth or flying magnet wheel option. If this does not work it then means that the MS does not have a quality trigger pick up device and I will move on from there.

[billr]

Are you still willing to give the 36-1 wheel a try? I really think both the 8 and 12-tooth ones you show in the pix are a poor shape. Sure, an input circuit dedicated to one of those might do better, but MS is designed to accommodate a very wide range of trigger types and many of us appreciate that. I don't think there is any "quality" issue with MS, it can work fine with proper selection of the wheels and sensors. Some compromises must have been made in the design to keep it far more affordable than any competitors, and we appreciate that too.

You said that it always works fine when not using the cam sensor, so maybe we need to focus more on details of that.