383 Dodge MS3x build. Cant keep running.

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Black_Bee
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Re: 383 Dodge MS3x build. Cant keep running.

Post by Black_Bee »

billr wrote:.022" TIR run-out is rather a lot, I would try to get that wheel centered better. I can't claim run-out is your whole problem, but it sure isn't going to help. I think .003-.010" TIR is realistic.
Wow... we are in a whole other ballpark of tolerances here. I am not sure that I am capable of keeping tolerances like that. I had the tooth wheel welded to my crank pulley my a machinist and I believe that it is centered to the pulley itself, so its possible that the pulley might not be centered due to the tolerances of the pulley bolts. I loosened the pulley bolts and tried moving the pulley to recenter, but I'm not sure how I could keep it that tight. I will try again.

Thanks for the help!
billr
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Re: 383 Dodge MS3x build. Cant keep running.

Post by billr »

Doesn't the pulley have a pilot into the dampener? All BBC pulleys I have seen have that pilot. If not, have a welded on to make a pilot, then turned down to make a good concentric pilot.
Black_Bee
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Re: 383 Dodge MS3x build. Cant keep running.

Post by Black_Bee »

billr wrote:Doesn't the pulley have a pilot into the dampener? All BBC pulleys I have seen have that pilot. If not, have a welded on to make a pilot, then turned down to make a good concentric pilot.
You are totally right, the damper does have a pilot on it... I had forgotten that it was there and that the the bolts are not what is centering everything. If I recall, it actually fit pretty tight when I installed it (as I guess would be expected!).

I will pull the pulley and wheel off at some point and directly measure whether or not the trigger is exactly centered.

Any other things that I could be looking at/researching that could cause the sync issues in the meantime? What should I be looking for in the tooth log that would indicate what is happening? Can those pots that I adjusted require fine tuning, or is it a "set it like this if its a hall sensor" type of thing.

Thanks again!
billr
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Re: 383 Dodge MS3x build. Cant keep running.

Post by billr »

In my brief experimenting with a Hall sensor (and o'scope) it seemed like the default of one pot fully CCW and the other fully CCW and then back six turns to center it was as good as anything. However, those style of pots have come as 12-turn, 7-turn, maybe even 20-turn. Not a problem when you are going "full CCW", but maybe a consideration when going back halfway. Since you actually measuring the voltage, that probably isn't a factor, though.
redmist
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Re: 383 Dodge MS3x build. Cant keep running.

Post by redmist »

I don't think it's ever going to rev correctly past 1000 RPM with your VE table like that.

Image
1968 Dodge Charger, 446ci 513HP/542ftlbs,Full sequential fuel/Spark using MS3X. Jeep CPS, Ford Crank sensor, 36-1 wheel, Coil near plug with D-585 ls2 coil packs. Edelbrock pro-flo intake, 600cc injectors, GM MAP, TPS, IACV, CTS, MAT. 92mm Throttle Body.
Black_Bee
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Re: 383 Dodge MS3x build. Cant keep running.

Post by Black_Bee »

redmist wrote:I don't think it's ever going to rev correctly past 1000 RPM with your VE table like that.
redmist, just an aside here, but your 440 MS build is 100% what inspired me to do my build!

Anyway...that's what the VE table generator generated for me... at least, I never changed it! Maybe I had accidentally set Tuner Studio to auto tune? I will regenerate the table again and see what happens..

I sit next to an (ex) Electronics Engineer at work, and he suggested that my sync issue could simply be noise in the crank input since the wires run somewhat closely to the ignition coils. The wires are shielded, but he wondered if the right size capacitor would help to clean up any noise related issues. I thought that maybe re-routing the crank wire as far from the coils as I could might clean things up too.

Thanks for the help!
billr
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Re: 383 Dodge MS3x build. Cant keep running.

Post by billr »

It never hurts to keep signal wiring away from RFI, like the ignition system, but if the wires are properly shielded it really shouldn't be a problem; especially using a Hall sensor.
Black_Bee
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Re: 383 Dodge MS3x build. Cant keep running.

Post by Black_Bee »

OK... I finally got it to stop losing sync!

I opened the unit up again and dialed the 56 pot all the way back CCW again, and then slowly turned it out CW, 1/2 a turn at a time until it would start and rev to redline without losing sync... I'm not sure if that is a standard thing or not, but worked.

Thanks again for your help guys! Now I can proceed with the actual tuning!
redmist
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Re: 383 Dodge MS3x build. Cant keep running.

Post by redmist »

Woohoo!!!
1968 Dodge Charger, 446ci 513HP/542ftlbs,Full sequential fuel/Spark using MS3X. Jeep CPS, Ford Crank sensor, 36-1 wheel, Coil near plug with D-585 ls2 coil packs. Edelbrock pro-flo intake, 600cc injectors, GM MAP, TPS, IACV, CTS, MAT. 92mm Throttle Body.
peterro
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Re: 383 Dodge MS3x build. Cant keep running.

Post by peterro »

Any issues with me jumping on this thread. Very similar build (440 Challenger). I suspect I may be having issues with sync loss as well but I need some help. I had to stop working on the car for a bit as I was getting a bit burned out and frustrated.

The symptoms are that it coughs and sputters and usually dies when attempting to start. Occasionally it will hunt around and figure out an "idle" at ~2700 revs. When it does that, the tach is very stable so it at least does run. I've captured the logs of a couble attempted starts but can grab more if necessary. I'll attach that and the current tune.

Thanks again all. I'm also interested in what manifold/etc you used with the 383. My father-in-law is interested for his Roadrunner.
billr
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Re: 383 Dodge MS3x build. Cant keep running.

Post by billr »

I don't think anybody here is going to complain about you taking over this thread, but I think you would be better-served starting a new one.

I didn't look at the logs yet, just MSQ. Three things pop out:
1) the cranking pulse is low, should never be less than 100 and usually in the 200 range at cold-start temperatures of 70-90F
2) many of the VE table values are low
3) with those 19# injectors the req_fuel value is high, this engine will be limited to about 4K rpm at WOT
Black_Bee
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Re: 383 Dodge MS3x build. Cant keep running.

Post by Black_Bee »

peterro wrote:Any issues with me jumping on this thread. Very similar build (440 Challenger). I suspect I may be having issues with sync loss as well but I need some help. I had to stop working on the car for a bit as I was getting a bit burned out and frustrated.

The symptoms are that it coughs and sputters and usually dies when attempting to start. Occasionally it will hunt around and figure out an "idle" at ~2700 revs. When it does that, the tach is very stable so it at least does run. I've captured the logs of a couble attempted starts but can grab more if necessary. I'll attach that and the current tune.

Thanks again all. I'm also interested in what manifold/etc you used with the 383. My father-in-law is interested for his Roadrunner.
Hey peterro

No problem with you getting in on this thread, but I am sure that starting your own thread would get you some better answers. I understand the frustration too... my build was a pretty solid 6 months of evenings and weekends and towards the end, I just wanted the whole car to disappear!

For my intake, since there are no EFI intakes available for a Mopar 383/400 (Indy has a couple high $$$$ ones in their catalog, but I question whether they actually exist), I decided to modify an older Edelbrock 383 Torker intake. I have very low "machinist capabilities", but I was able to make some holes in the runners (to match an Edelbrock fuel rail) with a tiny little drill press, and then epoxy (Belzona) in some injector bungs, and fabricate some brackets to hold the fuel rails. There is a reason why most shops want close to $600 to do this... it took me a really long time to do it.

I topped the modified Torker with an Accufab 4150 throttle body (1215 cfm!) on top of a 2" open carb spacer (required to mount the throttle & kickdown cable stuff), and combined with a 14" dropped base air cleaner and 3" filter, it all fits under the stock hood.

As for your sync troubles, I only know what my experience was... those pot adjustments fixed all of my sync issues.

I based my build on RedMist's' 440 build and also the articles in Mopar Action (which also appears to be based on RedMist's build)
peterro
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Re: 383 Dodge MS3x build. Cant keep running.

Post by peterro »

Thanks all,

I've started my own post: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 31&t=59597

I know the injectors are a bit small. I'll deal with that later. Bumping the cranking pulse did help it get started easier.
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