PWM water pump control

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dll67
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PWM water pump control

Post by dll67 »

I am looking to control a Meziere water pump with a MS3X pwm output. The pump pulls no more than 15A under load. I would like to build a simple circuit to do this. I dont think a SSR will handle the frequencies. From reading hundreds of other posts that are incomplete or have vague answers it sounds like I need a transistor/mosfet combination to handle current load and protect the MS3X output port from surges/backfeed from the mosfet.
I found several ready made units while searching today but that is not the direction I am going to go. This was supposed to be a 1 day project to wire my water pump to pwm control but without a circuit diagram to follow I now ask for your help please.
MS3PU/IOx/CAN-EGT/DBWx2 540ci BBC 325cc int runners (2)innovate LC2 wbo2's, Hilborn ITB injector cnvrtd to EFI, 55LB Inj, d585 coil near plg, 60-2 trg whl & cam ph snsr, Muncie 4spd w/10T VSS, Tilton 7.25" cerametalic cltch 8.5LB flywhl
dll67
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Re: PWM water pump control

Post by dll67 »

I have 6 IRFZ46N left from another project http://www.irf.com/product-info/datashe ... rfz46n.pdf along with TIP122's http://www.datasheets360.com/part/detai ... oCp5Lw_wcB
Can I make 1 or more of these components work along with a diode and resistor? Maybe something exactly/similar to this?
FETspeed.jpg
from this thread http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 79#p447479
MS3PU/IOx/CAN-EGT/DBWx2 540ci BBC 325cc int runners (2)innovate LC2 wbo2's, Hilborn ITB injector cnvrtd to EFI, 55LB Inj, d585 coil near plg, 60-2 trg whl & cam ph snsr, Muncie 4spd w/10T VSS, Tilton 7.25" cerametalic cltch 8.5LB flywhl
dll67
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Re: PWM water pump control

Post by dll67 »

Replacing the 2n2222 for a tip122. Assuming the 2n2222 was for inverting the signal?
MS3PU/IOx/CAN-EGT/DBWx2 540ci BBC 325cc int runners (2)innovate LC2 wbo2's, Hilborn ITB injector cnvrtd to EFI, 55LB Inj, d585 coil near plg, 60-2 trg whl & cam ph snsr, Muncie 4spd w/10T VSS, Tilton 7.25" cerametalic cltch 8.5LB flywhl
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Re: PWM water pump control

Post by DaveEFI »

dll67 wrote:Replacing the 2n2222 for a tip122. Assuming the 2n2222 was for inverting the signal?
The TIP122 is a Darlington pair. The 2n2222 a plain medium current NPN transistor.
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jb007
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Re: PWM water pump control

Post by jb007 »

dll67 wrote:I am looking to control a Meziere water pump with a MS3X pwm output. The pump pulls no more than 15A under load. I would like to build a simple circuit to do this. I dont think a SSR will handle the frequencies. From reading hundreds of other posts that are incomplete or have vague answers it sounds like I need a transistor/mosfet combination to handle current load and protect the MS3X output port from surges/backfeed from the mosfet.
I found several ready made units while searching today but that is not the direction I am going to go. This was supposed to be a 1 day project to wire my water pump to pwm control but without a circuit diagram to follow I now ask for your help please.
I thnk you will find that the references to SSR's not being able to handle the PWM frequencies really only applies to the cheaper 'EBay' SSR's. I've been down this route, and are just about to use a Crydom SSR that can handle a max freq of 3,500Hz. See this pdf for details. http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/93/1_dc-34325.pdf. I had actually made a Mosfe driver circuit, when I did a step back and re-think on how I was driving the returnless fuel pump and decided of the shelf was the way to go (for me at least).

Hope this helps you and others.

Jim
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Re: PWM water pump control

Post by brianj5600 »

They are not cheap, but a GM 15-80803 is designedto own a fan on a C6 Corvette. The need 128hz and should be reliable. There are other fan oem controllers, but I don't know if they are easy to configure. C6 controllers are around $100-$135.
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dll67
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Re: PWM water pump control

Post by dll67 »

Edited to add links
DaveEFI wrote:
dll67 wrote:Replacing the 2n2222 for a tip122. Assuming the 2n2222 was for inverting the signal?
The TIP122 is a Darlington pair. The 2n2222 a plain medium current NPN transistor.
I should have done my homework on these components but yesterday was a long day with little progress ...So .. They both do the same thing but the TIP122 takes less current to switch?
Will the pwm output from a ms3x be enough for either one to work?
jb007 wrote:
dll67 wrote:I am looking to control a Meziere water pump with a MS3X pwm output. The pump pulls no more than 15A under load. I would like to build a simple circuit to do this. I dont think a SSR will handle the frequencies. From reading hundreds of other posts that are incomplete or have vague answers it sounds like I need a transistor/mosfet combination to handle current load and protect the MS3X output port from surges/backfeed from the mosfet.
I found several ready made units while searching today but that is not the direction I am going to go. This was supposed to be a 1 day project to wire my water pump to pwm control but without a circuit diagram to follow I now ask for your help please.
I thnk you will find that the references to SSR's not being able to handle the PWM frequencies really only applies to the cheaper 'EBay' SSR's. I've been down this route, and are just about to use a Crydom SSR that can handle a max freq of 3,500Hz. See this pdf for details. http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/93/1_dc-34325.pdf. I had actually made a Mosfe driver circuit, when I did a step back and re-think on how I was driving the returnless fuel pump and decided of the shelf was the way to go (for me at least).

Hope this helps you and others.

Jim
Jim,
Thank you for your response.
Ive seen several of your posts here, on Jeans site and your blog all speaking of your progress with this. I am sorry I to am guilty of visiting and not posting ... yet ... im posting there next ..
In fact your information is what got me to try a SSR first. I tried this
ssr mods pwm control.png
(http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 8&start=20 on Page 2) When I applied poweer to the system the pump ran, I had not yet activated the output in tunerstudio. There was no indicator light on the SSR indicating it was triggered. I could not toggle the SSR with TunerStudio/CAN-bus test modes/output test mode-I/O, either when it was already running from first powering up the system or after power down and imediate power up where the pump then wouldnt start without input.
So if you have a suggestion for mods to this diagram to make it work with my pump .. I'll give it a try.
This is the SSR I tried a Picker CMPTS PCD240AC8 http://www.pickercomponents.com/pdf/Rel ... -Relay.pdf
brianj5600 wrote:They are not cheap, but a GM 15-80803 is designedto own a fan on a C6 Corvette. The need 128hz and should be reliable. There are other fan oem controllers, but I don't know if they are easy to configure. C6 controllers are around $100-$135.
Yeah thats expensive and days away from even being in my hands to start trying to make work.

Thanks for all the suggestions and ideas .. Well I'm off to the internet to learn how to build a simple switching circuit.
MS3PU/IOx/CAN-EGT/DBWx2 540ci BBC 325cc int runners (2)innovate LC2 wbo2's, Hilborn ITB injector cnvrtd to EFI, 55LB Inj, d585 coil near plg, 60-2 trg whl & cam ph snsr, Muncie 4spd w/10T VSS, Tilton 7.25" cerametalic cltch 8.5LB flywhl
dll67
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Re: PWM water pump control

Post by dll67 »

jb007 wrote:
dll67 wrote:I am looking to control a Meziere water pump with a MS3X pwm output. The pump pulls no more than 15A under load. I would like to build a simple circuit to do this. I dont think a SSR will handle the frequencies. From reading hundreds of other posts that are incomplete or have vague answers it sounds like I need a transistor/mosfet combination to handle current load and protect the MS3X output port from surges/backfeed from the mosfet.
I found several ready made units while searching today but that is not the direction I am going to go. This was supposed to be a 1 day project to wire my water pump to pwm control but without a circuit diagram to follow I now ask for your help please.
I thnk you will find that the references to SSR's not being able to handle the PWM frequencies really only applies to the cheaper 'EBay' SSR's. I've been down this route, and are just about to use a Crydom SSR that can handle a max freq of 3,500Hz. See this pdf for details. http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/93/1_dc-34325.pdf. I had actually made a Mosfe driver circuit, when I did a step back and re-think on how I was driving the returnless fuel pump and decided of the shelf was the way to go (for me at least).

Hope this helps you and others.

Jim
Jim,
Looking at your blog and site yesterday I found http://www.myo-p.com/PWM%20Motor%20Controller.pdf, was this a working model? Specifically the "Final Drive" portion of the circuit. It looks like it would work for my purposes
MS3PU/IOx/CAN-EGT/DBWx2 540ci BBC 325cc int runners (2)innovate LC2 wbo2's, Hilborn ITB injector cnvrtd to EFI, 55LB Inj, d585 coil near plg, 60-2 trg whl & cam ph snsr, Muncie 4spd w/10T VSS, Tilton 7.25" cerametalic cltch 8.5LB flywhl
racingmini_mtl
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Re: PWM water pump control

Post by racingmini_mtl »

Your link is for an AC SSR. If that's what you got, that won't work. You need to use a DC-DC SSR which uses DC at the input and output. And from the switching times in the datasheet (if they are similar for a DC unit) you won't be able to use much more than a 50Hz PWM signal (if that) which may not be sufficient for your fuel pump.

Also, in your diagram you will want to use 12V coming from the fuel pump relay (which must be controlled by your MS). If that's not what you're doing you may have some unpredictable behaviour.

Jean
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dll67
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Re: PWM water pump control

Post by dll67 »

racingmini_mtl wrote:Your link is for an AC SSR. If that's what you got, that won't work. You need to use a DC-DC SSR which uses DC at the input and output. And from the switching times in the datasheet (if they are similar for a DC unit) you won't be able to use much more than a 50Hz PWM signal (if that) which may not be sufficient for your fuel pump.

Also, in your diagram you will want to use 12V coming from the fuel pump relay (which must be controlled by your MS). If that's not what you're doing you may have some unpredictable behaviour.

Jean
Looks like its DC-AC .. "Input 4-32vdc" & "Load 40A 250VAC" Yeah I figured it was to slow switching to work.
What about this from Jim, specifically the "Final Drive" portion
Final Drive PWM Circuit.jpg
Will I need the comparator U4?
MS3PU/IOx/CAN-EGT/DBWx2 540ci BBC 325cc int runners (2)innovate LC2 wbo2's, Hilborn ITB injector cnvrtd to EFI, 55LB Inj, d585 coil near plg, 60-2 trg whl & cam ph snsr, Muncie 4spd w/10T VSS, Tilton 7.25" cerametalic cltch 8.5LB flywhl
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Re: PWM water pump control

Post by racingmini_mtl »

If you use your previous diagram from the other thread and use the TIP122 and IRFZ46 that you have, you should be ok.

Jean
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dll67
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Re: PWM water pump control

Post by dll67 »

racingmini_mtl wrote:If you use your previous diagram from the other thread and use the TIP122 and IRFZ46 that you have, you should be ok.

Jean
FETspeed.jpg
originally from http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 23&t=46742 and used in my thread http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 85#p447485
So the IRFZ46 in place of the IRFZ44 and the tip122 in place of the 2N222.
What is the 20TQF035 .. Some sort of Diode? 5 could not find any info on it.
Can I substitute that with A common diode or a zener?
MS3PU/IOx/CAN-EGT/DBWx2 540ci BBC 325cc int runners (2)innovate LC2 wbo2's, Hilborn ITB injector cnvrtd to EFI, 55LB Inj, d585 coil near plg, 60-2 trg whl & cam ph snsr, Muncie 4spd w/10T VSS, Tilton 7.25" cerametalic cltch 8.5LB flywhl
dll67
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Re: PWM water pump control

Post by dll67 »

From the symbol 20TQF035 looks like a Schottky diode but the number doesnt come up with any results.
Do I need the low forward voltage drop and a very fast switching action of a Schottky?
MS3PU/IOx/CAN-EGT/DBWx2 540ci BBC 325cc int runners (2)innovate LC2 wbo2's, Hilborn ITB injector cnvrtd to EFI, 55LB Inj, d585 coil near plg, 60-2 trg whl & cam ph snsr, Muncie 4spd w/10T VSS, Tilton 7.25" cerametalic cltch 8.5LB flywhl
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Re: PWM water pump control

Post by racingmini_mtl »

I don't think you need a Schottky diode there. An FR302 should be able to handle this.

Jean
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dll67
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Re: PWM water pump control

Post by dll67 »

racingmini_mtl wrote:I don't think you need a Schottky diode there. An FR302 should be able to handle this.

Jean
Working from parts on hand here .. How about a YG902C2
YG902C2_and_YG902N2.pdf
.. and just use one half of it .. From my readings in other posts is this the part of the circuit that handles clamping and can generate some heat? The YG902C2 is heat sink mountable SC-67 form factor ... Or is it strictly reverse current protection?
Edit:
Wait a miniute 1N5819 https://www.fairchildsemi.com/datasheets/1N/1N5817.pdf This looks like it'll fit the bill

Jean, Thanks for all the help .. again .. Your surely a MVP in my book
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Re: PWM water pump control

Post by TheSilverBuick »

I'm interested to hear how this works out. I would like to do the same, but am not overly electrical savvy, just know a few basics. For the last year I've ran the electric water pump on my Firebird as a simple ON/OFF control based on temperature and engine load thresholds. But I want to get a much higher capacity Meziere pump and would like better control resolution (as well as use this setup on an overly large fuel pump setup).
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dll67
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Re: PWM water pump control

Post by dll67 »

TheSilverBuick wrote:I'm interested to hear how this works out. I would like to do the same, but am not overly electrical savvy, just know a few basics. For the last year I've ran the electric water pump on my Firebird as a simple ON/OFF control based on temperature and engine load thresholds. But I want to get a much higher capacity Meziere pump and would like better control resolution (as well as use this setup on an overly large fuel pump setup).
Did I see a 3 page thread you started investigating this option
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dll67
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Re: PWM water pump control

Post by dll67 »

MS3PU/IOx/CAN-EGT/DBWx2 540ci BBC 325cc int runners (2)innovate LC2 wbo2's, Hilborn ITB injector cnvrtd to EFI, 55LB Inj, d585 coil near plg, 60-2 trg whl & cam ph snsr, Muncie 4spd w/10T VSS, Tilton 7.25" cerametalic cltch 8.5LB flywhl
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Re: PWM water pump control

Post by Paul_VR6 »

Probably worth talking to Meziere. I remember them not recommending using pwm control on the smaller 20gph pumps.
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dll67
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Re: PWM water pump control

Post by dll67 »

Ok testing with a light bulb .. as soon as I hook everything up light comes on .. before anythings supposed to be.
This circuit is suposed to work with a ms3x medium current negative trigger output ... right? Am I missing something simple?
MS3PU/IOx/CAN-EGT/DBWx2 540ci BBC 325cc int runners (2)innovate LC2 wbo2's, Hilborn ITB injector cnvrtd to EFI, 55LB Inj, d585 coil near plg, 60-2 trg whl & cam ph snsr, Muncie 4spd w/10T VSS, Tilton 7.25" cerametalic cltch 8.5LB flywhl
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