MS3/MS3X v3.57 - Audi/VW V6 2.8L 30V B5 Engines

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MS3/MS3X v3.57 - Audi/VW V6 2.8L 30V B5 Engines

Post by rpjunior.br »

Hi to everybody,

I did a long search in the forum and didn't found anything similar. I have a Passat B5 98/99 V6 2.8L 30V engine and I am planning to use it in another car with my MS3/MS3X ECU. For now I am doing the wiring to turn it on in a "bench test". I am new in all this (engine management), but I am thinking its awesome, the idea of take the control of all engine parameters is outstanding...!!! I am reading the MS manual but I am facing a few problems with Tach input. My engine has a Crankshaft Hall sensor (pretty sure -> 60-2 teeth) and 2 Camshafts Hall sensors as figure below:
Crankshaft_Sensor.jpg
Camshaft_Sensors.jpg
My doubt for now is how to deal with "Three Tach Inputs"? At the MS manual there is a brief explanation using BMW as example but I didn't get it. For now I want to know about wiring diagrams scheme and why I need 3 tach inputs. I still have to figure it out about how these sensors works, equivalent circuit, etc... The engine as stock works with semi-sequential spark, firing 2 spark plugs simultaneously at a time.

I am not sure about the forum rules, but my intention is to use this topic as a log for my project. So at the end, if it is allowed of course, all my issues and solutions will be here shared with everyone who has these VAG engine models... I am doing an extend research and I can share all that I have. Repair manuals, Spare Parts Catalog, wiring diagrams, engine tunning, etc...

Hope somebody can help me.
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Re: MS3/MS3X v3.57 - Audi/VW V6 2.8L 30V B5 Engines

Post by Paul_VR6 »

Some of the earlier Audis had the triple trigger, but I am pretty sure the 30v just has a 60-2 crank and two cam sensors (one each bank). Depending on year they are either hi/low or poll level. See manual for details.
-Paul
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Re: MS3/MS3X v3.57 - Audi/VW V6 2.8L 30V B5 Engines

Post by bradyzq »

I think your crank sensor may be VR, not Hall Effect. The third pin is for the shield.
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Re: MS3/MS3X v3.57 - Audi/VW V6 2.8L 30V B5 Engines

Post by rpjunior.br »

bradyzq wrote:I think your crank sensor may be VR, not Hall Effect. The third pin is for the shield.
Thanks bradyzq!!! you're right... good point... the CAS for this engine is VR sensor. The two cam sensors that are Hall effect.
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Re: MS3/MS3X v3.57 - Audi/VW V6 2.8L 30V B5 Engines

Post by rpjunior.br »

Paul_VR6 wrote:Some of the earlier Audis had the triple trigger, but I am pretty sure the 30v just has a 60-2 crank and two cam sensors (one each bank). Depending on year they are either hi/low or poll level. See manual for details.
Paul_VR6, my case is like you say, a 60-2 crank and two cam sensors. The CAS I will connect it as MS manual suggests. My doubt is how to wire the 2 cam sensors in MS inputs and what to do with this additional information? Do you have a suggestion? As I am getting started, I have no idea, maybe something equivalent like this example in the manual:
NipponDenso.jpg
Thanks for help Paul
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Re: MS3/MS3X v3.57 - Audi/VW V6 2.8L 30V B5 Engines

Post by prof315 »

You are in the wrong part of the manual. You don't have a CAS you have a dual wheel with missing tooth set up.
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Re: MS3/MS3X v3.57 - Audi/VW V6 2.8L 30V B5 Engines

Post by Paul_VR6 »

Also if that engine only used on/off vvt its likely you will only need/want to use one cam sensor for #1 detection. The second one would only be used to check of vvt is active when enabled.
-Paul
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Re: MS3/MS3X v3.57 - Audi/VW V6 2.8L 30V B5 Engines

Post by rpjunior.br »

prof315 wrote:You are in the wrong part of the manual. You don't have a CAS you have a dual wheel with missing tooth set up.
Thanks prof315, I got your point. I know this manual page is not my case, I just put it as an possible "equivalent diagram" because it uses 3 position sensors. But it uses only 2, one is not connected. In my case I have 1 VR sensor in crankshaft (60-2) and 2 Hall sensors with a Vane Cup (one for each bank).
Vane_Cup_Single_Window.jpg
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Re: MS3/MS3X v3.57 - Audi/VW V6 2.8L 30V B5 Engines

Post by rpjunior.br »

Paul_VR6 wrote:Also if that engine only used on/off vvt its likely you will only need/want to use one cam sensor for #1 detection. The second one would only be used to check of vvt is active when enabled.
Thanks Paul_VR. It is an interesting point. I am pretty sure that my engine has this on/off vvt, I did read in some forum that below 1500 rpm the standard Motronic ECU activate it. Can it be done using MS? Sorry about the basic question, I am in Hardware Manual yet. I still have to read the TunerStudio reference manual.

I am just trying to figure out why the existence of a crankshaft sensor and 2 camshaft sensors if you can do all you want (full sequential for example) with a crankshaft sensor and only one camshaft sensor. It's confusing me even more, because the engine works with semi-sequential configuration in factory config, and normally the automakers don't waste money (the extra sensor) if it isn't really needed. LOL....
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Re: MS3/MS3X v3.57 - Audi/VW V6 2.8L 30V B5 Engines

Post by prof315 »

But Paul just explained...... the second CMP was used to verify correct VVT operation. And the 2.8L 30V does use basic On/Off VVT. While the solenoid(s) can be used with PWM it will hugely reduce their life (to between 5000 and 10000 miles)
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MS3/MS3X v3.57 - Audi/VW V6 2.8L 30V B5 Engines

Post by Paul_VR6 »

If you have the single window wheel its super simple, just use the one for the bank that cyl 1 is on and you are done.

Usually intake vvt is on 1.5-2k, off at 4.5k-5.5k if base is full cam retard.
-Paul
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Re: MS3/MS3X v3.57 - Audi/VW V6 2.8L 30V B5 Engines

Post by rpjunior.br »

Got it... I will follow your suggestions. For this first step I just want my engine to run as it is in standard config. In next steps we can discuss the fine tunning and improvements.

Thanks again Paul_VR6 and prof315 for the help and for sharing your knowledge.
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Re: MS3/MS3X v3.57 - Audi/VW V6 2.8L 30V B5 Engines

Post by Paul_VR6 »

Good luck and keep us posted.
-Paul
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Re: MS3/MS3X v3.57 - Audi/VW V6 2.8L 30V B5 Engines

Post by rpjunior.br »

Hello again. I am back!!! Duty calls.

One more basic doubt (unfortunately not for me...:(). I am doing the harness scheme now. Is possible to use a sequential injection config with semi-sequential sparks?
Let me try to explain my doubt. This engine has a coil pack with drivers included. The harness connector has 5 pin and according to my research it seems to work triggering 2 sparks at time.
VAG B5 Coil Pack.png
Pin 1 - 12V
Pin 2 - Sparks Command Cylinder 1 and 6
Pin 3 - Sparks Command Cylinder 4 and 2
Pin 4 - Sparks Command Cylinder 3 and 5
Pin 5 - GND

As the firing order is 1-4-3-6-2-5, when firing cylinder 1 the cylinder 6 has a waste spark also, and so on for the others.

As I am doing the harness yet, I don´t know if this config is possible. Is this the right way? Can I just connect it using MS3X outputs 14, 33 and 15 (Spark A, B and C) to Pins 2, 3 and 4?

If it is wrong, how I could wire it?

Another more specific doubt (for future tune setup) is if this engine is a V6 90º "odd fire" or "even fire" and if I can set it to fire sequence of 120 deg. I didn't figure it out in my research.

Thanks to all.
Bye.
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Re: MS3/MS3X v3.57 - Audi/VW V6 2.8L 30V B5 Engines

Post by Paul_VR6 »

Yes use spark a/b/c and all six injector channels. Cam will be used for seq fuel but not for spark (as its not needed). That engine is 90deg so its even fire.
-Paul
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Re: MS3/MS3X v3.57 - Audi/VW V6 2.8L 30V B5 Engines

Post by rpjunior.br »

Thanks again Paul_VR6. I will finish and review the diagram and post here.
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Re: MS3/MS3X v3.57 - Audi/VW V6 2.8L 30V B5 Engines

Post by dontz125 »

Paul_VR6 wrote:That engine is 90deg so its even fire.
At the risk of debating the layout of a V6 with someone with V6 in his sig - and demonstrating my ignorance of V6 engines - a firing pattern of 6x 90deg = 540, not 720. Doesn't that mean there's a gap between pairs?
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Re: MS3/MS3X v3.57 - Audi/VW V6 2.8L 30V B5 Engines

Post by rpjunior.br »

dontz125 wrote:
Paul_VR6 wrote:That engine is 90deg so its even fire.
At the risk of debating the layout of a V6 with someone with V6 in his sig - and demonstrating my ignorance of V6 engines - a firing pattern of 6x 90deg = 540, not 720. Doesn't that mean there's a gap between pairs?
Hi. dontz125. I am doing some research about it, and I think that the crank has "unnatural" angles and it is counterbalanced.
"More modern 90° V6 engine designs avoid these vibration problems by using crankshafts with offset split crankpins to make the firing intervals even" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V6_engine#90_degrees

Seems a quite good solution to overcome this issue.
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Re: MS3/MS3X v3.57 - Audi/VW V6 2.8L 30V B5 Engines

Post by rpjunior.br »

Hello all. I am stuck again...

I don´t know how to wire my Throttle sensors. There is a motor to control the position at idle speed. I don´t understood it well. I found the MK3 connector wiring pins, it seems the same of my TPS, but I don't know how to wire it up on my MS. How to handle the idle motor? witch connection I have to do in MS? IAC1/2, FIDLE? I don´t know if this idle motor is "on/off" that can be turned on using a relay or it has a "continuous operation" that needs a controller.
MK3_TPS_Wiring.jpg
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.p ... -tps-wires


The MS manual describes well the wiring to connect pins 4, 5 and 7. :D
4 -> Main plug #7 (Ground)
5 -> Main plug #22 (TPS)
7 -> Main plug #26 (VREF 5V)

Thanks to all.
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Re: MS3/MS3X v3.57 - Audi/VW V6 2.8L 30V B5 Engines

Post by Paul_VR6 »

That throttle body uses a servo to drive the plate when main tps=0. You can't do that, so your best bet is to wire pin 1 to 12v switched (ignition or fuel pump) and pin 2 to idle on 3x. Set it up open loop, around 1khz and change duty with key on and see how it behaves. Sometimes for best results you need to switch the output polarity and the 1/2 wiring. Not sure why.
-Paul
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