New MS3 install on LT1 troubles

[rdmotors]

Always don't know how to start one of these Topics.

I have a 97 LT1 swapped into a 89 Camaro. To run it I have a MS3 with a Ms3x board. I have tried to go thru all the setups and triple check that they are done. The problem I am having is the car will start and run for two or three seconds spitting and sputtering the entire time. It usually stops with a series of backfires thru the intake. It also is dumping a lot of fluid out the tail pipes that doesn't smell like gas or coolant. I have tried changing the timing but it doesn't seem to change the end result. Yes I am trying to run the Optispark. Before you say it is bad I drove the car into the shop with the old ecu connected. The problems with it was no way to reprogram it, was running way to rich, no way to turn off the deleted egr, or air pump, and the removal of the back two o2 sensors. A stock ecu is a pain but they did do one thing if everything was close...it will make a car run.
I have changed the front, only ones in the car, o2 sensors. They are narrow band right now and I do plan to change them later on if the car runs. I have also changed out the gas since it was old. The fuel pressure regulator thinking it was maybe causing a problem.
Some of the problem is my knowledge of MS3 and Tuner Studio. I have gone thru the manuals and what videos I can find to make this stuff work but it seems to be still magical and a little voodoo.
I would add a data log but the engine doesn't stay running long enough to get any useful information.
I know there is a lot of info I have left out but at this point I am really burnt out on this and don't know what else to add to this.
I hope there is someone out there that can atleast point me in some direction to get this project done.

[Matt Cramer]

Please attach a data log of what you ARE able to get.

[rdmotors]

Ok here is one I got a few days back

[Matt Cramer]

Try saving the log before it starts - this will give me more info. Is the coolant temperature reading correct?

[rdmotors]

Thanks for the help I never noticed the temp being like that. I knew I needed a new set of eyes. The attached logs are not running so you can see it cold and just sitting. Then I tried cranking it and on the third try it fired and ran for a second or two.
The first log has some discrepancy's with the o2 sensors. The manual says connect the white wire to signal and the blue to signal ground. Well the o2 sensors has two white wires coming out of them which change to a tan/white and a purple/white after the wire harness plug. Didn't know how to wire them so had a 50/50 chance on getting it right. Found out the tan/white was a low voltage and purple/white was a high voltage. I am measuring like .5v and 11v on them respectively. I had them reversed to what they needed to be. The purple/white needed to be going to signal in for the MS3 and the tan/white to what I call signal ground. So now they start at 16.0 instead of 20.0 on the dash gauges. I do hope that is right now, since they do move downward when trying to start.
Thanks again I knew that I have gotten too side tracked and was looking at the forest instead of the trees.

[billr]

The cranking threshold is set so high (800 rpm) that the engine can't get out of the cranking settings when it tries to run; set that at something more reasonable, like 250 rpm. I would disconnect the O2 sensor and turn off anything related to EGO correction for now. There is no need for that stuff to get an engine running, and fairly well, so get that confusion out of the way for now. Especially since your present sensor is a NB...

[rdmotors]

Ok tried that and it will crank and sputter but not get running at all. Set the threshold down to 200 and no change.

[billr]

The injector dead-time is much higher than I am used to seeing (4 msec); did you actually measure that? The WUE is kind of lean, but probably no use fussing with that until we are sure the DT is correct.

[rdmotors]

I have not been able to get the car to run so tuning the time hasn't been something I could do. Do you have a base line suggestion to start with.

[Matt Cramer]

What injectors are you using? A good baseline is 1.1 ms for high impedance or 0.7 ms for low impedance in the absence of better data.

[billr]

I'm not sure what you mean by "tuning the time", but the engine does not have to run to check spark timing or to measure injector dead-time and flow.

[242ATL]

Are your injectors wired to the ms3x card? Are you using MS3X fuel?

I seem to remember with my install, I had my injectors wired batch fire, but selected MS3X fuel by mistake and the car never ran right until I chose std fuel in "Engine and Sequential Settings".

[rdmotors]

Let see if I can cover all the questions.....

I am using the standard stock injectors that came with the motor from a 97 formula firebird...They are 24lb injectors
I did measure the impedance and got around 11 on them.

I'm not sure what you mean by "tuning the time", but the engine does not have to run to check spark timing or to measure injector dead-time and flow.

I am going by only what I can read up on setting injector dead time and most are saying that you get the car running and raise and lower it to tune the dead time. If I am wrong please correct me and let me know what to do.

I am wired and set to sequential settings or at least that is what I think could be wrong have been on many other things.

Adding the tune file once again since it has changed

Forgot to mention tried the changes to dead time as suggested and it didn't seem to make a difference. Cranks and doesn't hit any at all. I add this might be that I am not Cranking the car over fast enough will try charging it and seeing if that will change its reaction.

[billr]

"I am going by only what I can read up on setting injector dead time and most are saying that you get the car running and raise and lower it to tune the dead time"

I gotta ask.. what is the "it" there? If you mean number of squirts, that is a way to verify the dead-time is about correct, but there is a more accurate way to measure dead-time, without even having an engine nearby.

However, since you have it set for MS3X/full-sequential on the injectors, the "number of squirts" has no effect, you always get one!

[rdmotors]

The "it" is dead time I am referring to.

Yea I know it being sequential limits me to one squirt. Don't know if that is helping me or not, like I have said I am lost right now to what is not working right to keep it from running, idling, or even spitting and sputtering. If it was a carb motor I would check fire first, which I know I have, and then prime the carb make sure the accelerator pump is working and then crank while adjusting the timing to get it to start. To say that and none of it applies here. Sure do miss the simple stuff. I have done a lot of stock rebuilds and reconnected them to stock ecu's and they just work. Should of payed more attention.

Don't know if any of this will help but specs of the motor:
Stock ported heads shaved .020"
LT4 hot cam
LT4 valve springs and retainers
Hydraulic roller lifters and harden pushrods
1.5r roller rockers
Block bored .030" over
stock injectors
Stock but ported LT1 intake
Shorty headers with O2 sensor "NB" on both banks
Stock LT1 fuel pump in tank
New crank, all bearings, timing chain, oil pump, rings and pistons
water pump, alternator

It will get more complicated once a friend finishes the controller for the 4L60E which is rebuilt with upgrades to handle a little thrashing.

All of this just to make a cruiser and something for long trips, and yes a little something to contend with the Nissans, Toyotas, and Hondas that all the Ladies around here think are supercars. Sorry ladies if I offend but some around here are...... well crazy when the get behind the wheel and aggressive. I just want to get away from them and ride in peace, my 2.8L wasn't doing it.

Please continue to help guys I appreciate it a bunch, I would love to get this thing up on the parkway with the t-roofs out and do a cruise.

[billr]

Have you checked spark timing on every cylinder? What are the present compression readings? I think I already said it, but turn off the EGO control; it is just going to confuse things right now.

[ChevelleFan]

Is it me, or is your priming pulse table maybe putting too much fuel in, leading to hard starts? are plugs fouled?

-Dave

[rdmotors]

I have not run a compression test on the motor because it being brand new and haven't though it would be a problem. I do believe I have the EGO off right now. I adjusted the priming pulse to something on the chart, never noticed it. I set it to a lot lower might be to low but on the chart for now. Is there any place someone might have a tune for a LT1 on the net? Something I could use as a base line?
Right now I crank and the rpms don't get over 105. I don't get anything out of it but just cranking. Seems like I have no fire but I do. Just lost right now.

[ChevelleFan]

You verified you're getting spark? Using a timing light so that you know it's getting spark at the right time?

Are you smelling fuel at all? What happens when you hold throttle all the way open (flood clear)?

Post your most recent MSQ with priming pulse changes. I'm happy to share my MSQ for MS2/Extra on my 383 if you want to compare, but I'm setup for batch fire with a regular GM distributor. Send me a PM with your email if you want my MSQ.

-Dave

[rdmotors]

I have checked the fire today and yes I have fire to the plugs. I cant use a timing light to check timing since the only thing it would tell me is that the plug is firing. The optispark motor doesn't have a timing tab or a mark on the harmonic balancer to set the timing. The "distributor" is driven off the cam shaft and is mounted behind the water pump in a fixed position. So it all is up to the computer to adjust anything.
I don't smell fuel but I do know the injectors are powered.
I regress from speculating too much to what is wrong I don't want to muddy the waters and or go down the wrong path I am trying to listen and do exactly what you guys are suggesting.
I say that and am wondering if I am not putting enough fuel in right now?

Ok here is the current file: