New MS3 install on LT1 troubles

[billr]

Use a dab of paint or just piece of tape on the dampener/pulley to make a timing mark! It doesn't have to be very accurate, just some verification that spark timing is in the right ball-park. I would put four such marks in place, 90 degrees apart, so you can verify timing on all cylinders.

Eventually, of course, you probably will want to know that the timing MS is commanding is what the engine is really seeing, so adding at least one good mark is almost a necessity, but you don't need to make that a stumbling block to getting the engine running fairly well.

[ChevelleFan]

I agree with billr to try and come up with some sort of timing reference mark. This is going to be critical.

Other things: this is a mostly stock normally-aspirated LT1? Your Fuel VE Table 1, AFR Table 1, and Ignition Table are all jacked up, going to 400kpa, where your NA setup should top out at 100kpa. You do have the EGO control disabled, which is fine for getting it started. Your priming and cranking pulses look somewhat reasonable compared to mine.

I made changes to your VE 1, AFR 1, and IgnTable 1. The Ignition table was an export/import of my ZZ383 ignition table. It's probably a lot closer than what you had. I also changed your Idle Control to Open Loop. You can change it back after you get it running a little better. I'm just trying to help you get it started. try loading this MSQ and see if works any better.

-Dave

[rdmotors]

Dumb question number one:
If I am not getting above the cranking threshold will it start?

Been coming to the Forum to see if any new posts cause I had no emails telling me that new posts had been left.....Didn't noticed we had gotten to page two so I missed the new post over the weekend....
Tried the new MSQ but the car will not crank more than 80 rpm....It is outside and the chance of rain today is ...well look outside and see if it is or isn't. It has been on and off all day so will have to charge the car up and retry...with out it raining all over the charger.

Thanks again guys need the help

[ChevelleFan]

Dumb question number one:
If I am not getting above the cranking threshold will it start?

Yes. At 0 RPM, injectors are not fired. from 1rpm-<cranking threshold RPM>, injectors are fired in "cranking mode", once RPM exceeds <cranking threshold RPM>, injectors are fired 'normally' (sequential, MS3X in your case). 200-300 RPM should be a good threshold.

I haven't seen it mentioned -- how do you have the injectors wired? I've only done batch-fire on MS2. Maybe someone with the MS3 experience can chime in and tell you what to check. Maybe it would be easier to get it fired up initially on batch-fire to take some of the complexity out of it? (and go back to sequential once you get the basics sorted out)

-Dave

[billr]

Why is it cranking so slow, is that because the battery charge is low, as indicated in the MSL posted? I wouldn't count on getting sync at very low rpm, especially if the CKP sensor is VR. I'm not saying that MS can't start and run an engine if battery voltage drops into the sub-9V range, as yours was, but you are compounding your problems right now in getting this install sorted out.

[rdmotors]

Hey guys I am back life got in the way for a few days.

I do have the sequential wired up with the 3x board. Yes the battery was flat a bit when I tried it the last time I posted. I had been cranking on it for awhile and had not payed attention.

At this point it is still not starting. I have adjusted on the fuel levels at cranking. Did that because I pulled a plug and it was not wet so the thinking was not getting gas, I do have fire. Hope I got compression. LOL

Attached what I got so far..........

[billr]

Give it a quick blast of starting-fluid, let's see if this is *only* a fueling problem and everything else is "good enough" for it to at least fire and run. Did you ever verify the spark timing is correct?

[rdmotors]

LOL I have to do that since I had tried that with a starting fluid and got nothing....then found out what I used, brake parts cleaner, now comes in a non-flammable version. So today I got one off the shelf and made sure it would burn and the car started and burnt all of that and shut off. So got it into the shop and started poking around. "thinking" So she has everything but fuel. So a little led light in one of the injector plugs and I see it flash once prime while fuel pump is priming. Then it flashes with each cycle you would expect for the firing of it. So back to the fuel....pressure gauge on the fuel rail and crank it...nothing. After cycling it a few times I do get some pressure but it is low. Now remember I drove this into the shop with the old odb2 setup. So I know the pump is good and when I did the engine swap last year I did put a new higher pressure pump in the tank to feed the new V8. It was a new pump for a stock V8 in the early 90's with the correct pressure for this motor and would fit in the tank.

I am going to get the car up higher and do the timing tab thing even if I have to make one. I was just trying to see if my priming fuel for cranking was off and that was why it wouldn't start. The timing thing will be over the weekend vacation for me. Yep love working on my car that much I take vacation to do it.

So here is my thought Is there a way to run the pump longer than 3 secs on priming?
Might get a new fuel filter and see if that changes anything.... doesn't have many miles on it but wouldn't hurt
Then recheck pressures....
Anything else you guys suggest...?

[jsmcortina]

So here is my thought Is there a way to run the pump longer than 3 secs on priming?

Set "priming delay" and the pump will run that much longer too.

I'd be tempted to add a temporary bypass switch so you can manually turn the pump on - at least that way you can see if it ever builds pressure and confirm whether the engine will run ok that way. It might help you narrow things down.

However, if a pump needs more that 3 seconds to build pressure on a "live" system, then something is wrong somewhere for sure. OEM quality pumps and regulators will usually hold pressure for hours or even weeks.

James

[billr]

Priming really isn't required to get an engine to start, don't get too focused on that. It sounds like your pump simply isn't being powered-up when cranking (sync) is detected.

[WillExoIX]

The "it" is dead time I am referring to.

Yea I know it being sequential limits me to one squirt. Don't know if that is helping me or not, like I have said I am lost right now to what is not working right to keep it from running, idling, or even spitting and sputtering. If it was a carb motor I would check fire first, which I know I have, and then prime the carb make sure the accelerator pump is working and then crank while adjusting the timing to get it to start. To say that and none of it applies here. Sure do miss the simple stuff. I have done a lot of stock rebuilds and reconnected them to stock ecu's and they just work. Should of payed more attention.

Don't know if any of this will help but specs of the motor:
Stock ported heads shaved .020"
LT4 hot cam
LT4 valve springs and retainers
Hydraulic roller lifters and harden pushrods
1.5r roller rockers
Block bored .030" over
stock injectors
Stock but ported LT1 intake
Shorty headers with O2 sensor "NB" on both banks
Stock LT1 fuel pump in tank
New crank, all bearings, timing chain, oil pump, rings and pistons
water pump, alternator

It will get more complicated once a friend finishes the controller for the 4L60E which is rebuilt with upgrades to handle a little thrashing.

All of this just to make a cruiser and something for long trips, and yes a little something to contend with the Nissans, Toyotas, and Hondas that all the Ladies around here think are supercars. Sorry ladies if I offend but some around here are...... well crazy when the get behind the wheel and aggressive. I just want to get away from them and ride in peace, my 2.8L wasn't doing it.

Please continue to help guys I appreciate it a bunch, I would love to get this thing up on the parkway with the t-roofs out and do a cruise.

Hehe. My 2.8L loved eating other cars, but with the assistance of a 60mm turbo and 20psi LOL.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

[rdmotors]

I have checked the timing and it is dead on tdc. I then set it to 10 btc in the ecu since that is what
stock is suppose to be set to. Had to print out a timer tab for temporary install to figure this out.

I went ahead and pulled the fuel rails to see if maybe i had some leaking injectors, and turned out i dont.
Put a new pressure regulator on since the other was holding at 41 psi and now i got one adjustable and right now it has 45 psi.
I tried to crank it and it gets to a point and almost catches, it fires like two or three times then back to cranking.
I have run the cranking and priming up quite a bit and got this result. Still not getting it to run....
So got a crazy idea and shot some stuff in it and then once it got running on that leaned over and shot some more in it.
Low and behold it kelp running as long as i kept shooting something in it.
All that to say I guessing that I need to check into my injectors and setup for them to make sure the system is set right.

[ChevelleFan]

In Engine and Sequential Settings, try changing "Sequential On" to "Off" so it'll run in batch fire mode, because if your injector wiring is wrong, that could keep it from running. I dont have experience with sequential, so I can't offer much advice other than to double check your injector wiring, maybe use your injector test light to verify all 8 injectors are firing, but even that won't tell you if you have the firing order wrong.

-Dave

[jsmcortina]

That might be worth a try, but I wouldn't expect a huge difference. While sequential can help with refinement and throttle response, the fuel is still there in the port, so it shouldn't stop an engine from running. (Mis-wired sequential spark on the other hand does cause a big issue because the spark has been and gone, it doesn't "wait around.")

James

[rdmotors]

Ok went back and checked all the injectors and they are firing. The light blinked. I did the light check to see if anything has changed.
I made sure the wiring was going to work as i put it together by using a ohms meter to check each connection.
Rechecked the firing order and it is set right in the ecu and rechecked wiring to a diagram I made before wiring the car.
I like having a wiring diagram for my car to make trouble shooting easier. By the wiring colors and pin outs and all that everything checks out.

Forgot to mention the batch fire didn't change it. The car still cranks almost starts then dies.
I am going to look into rasing the cranking pluse and the initial starting pulses to see if I can get enought fuel into it to start.

[rdmotors]

So did find out some other info....
In 1997 to make the camaro faster than the firebird it got 24 lb injectors, the firebird on the other hand still got 22 lb injectors.
Now changing that has mad some difference to the car but still wont run.

[ChevelleFan]

I'd try generating a new VE table. When I tried generating one with values I thought were close to your LT1 setup, it comes up with noticeably larger VE numbers, especially in the 500/700/900 rpm columns. See the attached screenshot for the numbers I used.

-Dave

[billr]

Do you understand that you cannot "set the firing order in the ECU (TS settings)", it must be set in the wiring. SparkA will go to cylinder #1, but usually B does not go to #2, C does not go to #3, etc.

[rdmotors]

I meant exactly what you are talking about with the timing setup. I rechecked the firing order of the injectors to the cylinders, where you setup inj a to one and then inj b to eight and so on. I wanted to make sure I got the order right. I still cant remember the order, I can remember all kinds of other things but the firing order of a sbc eludes me. I know it is just like a phone number but still cant get it down pat.
Yep the fuel be table is what I was shooting for today to get right. I have it cranking catching and then dieing. So that was the next thing to adjust to get it to stay running. Since spraying fluid in the throttle body keeps it running. Still have been checking plugs and they are black and sooty but not wet. Just got one problem the chart you show I don't have I got this three d graph. Have not figured out how to change it back to a chart...lol
Just something else to dive into....

[jsmcortina]

18436572 ?

As I said above, I really really doubt that injector wiring order is the problem here.

James