JDM Subaru EJ207 VVT Implementation

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subatoy71
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JDM Subaru EJ207 VVT Implementation

Post by subatoy71 »

Hi,
Its been a long wait (2011) but I'm happy that MS3 has come along with VVT support.
I am currently setting up a JDM EJ20 to control Intake only AVCS. As some of you alredy know control is via PWM oil control valves of the PID variety.
I am using Firmware 1.4.1rel code on this install on a ver 3 mainboard with ms3x card. Tunerstudio version is 3.0.10 . Msq and datalog attached

So far I have succeeded in running batchfire, wasted COP and full sequential on the 36-2-2-2 Ign setup. I am attempting to configure the VVT with 1 channel outputting on INJ 1(one solenoid per DB37 PIN. Still have to run two IN4001s as Jean had recommended for PWM inj1 circuit). Outputs to the control valve have tested OK in test mode. I am also able to see a 45-46 degree angle registering on the VVT1 angle guage so the cam signal appears solid.
The cam signals this engine uses are - Two teeth on Cam sprocket and four evenly spaced teeth on the rear of the cam.

I have read the Setting up manual on open loop testing-looks straightforward. Where do I get TDC reference for angle change if Cam 1 defaults to main input?
Not proficient with quotes but I saw Matt suggested to someone to try using the 4 tooth signal as sync and the two tooth to measure range. How can this be done in sequential mode?

Can I create a dummy Cam 1 and do the active control using cam 2?

Some help would be greatly appreciated on this one
CRSTune
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Re: JDM Subaru EJ207 VVT Implementation

Post by CRSTune »

subatoy71 wrote:Hi,
Its been a long wait (2011) but I'm happy that MS3 has come along with VVT support.
I am currently setting up a JDM EJ20 to control Intake only AVCS. As some of you alredy know control is via PWM oil control valves of the PID variety.
I am using Firmware 1.4.1rel code on this install on a ver 3 mainboard with ms3x card. Tunerstudio version is 3.0.10 . Msq and datalog attached

So far I have succeeded in running batchfire, wasted COP and full sequential on the 36-2-2-2 Ign setup. I am attempting to configure the VVT with 1 channel outputting on INJ 1(one solenoid per DB37 PIN. Still have to run two IN4001s as Jean had recommended for PWM inj1 circuit). Outputs to the control valve have tested OK in test mode. I am also able to see a 45-46 degree angle registering on the VVT1 angle guage so the cam signal appears solid.
The cam signals this engine uses are - Two teeth on Cam sprocket and four evenly spaced teeth on the rear of the cam.

I have read the Setting up manual on open loop testing-looks straightforward. Where do I get TDC reference for angle change if Cam 1 defaults to main input?
Not proficient with quotes but I saw Matt suggested to someone to try using the 4 tooth signal as sync and the two tooth to measure range. How can this be done in sequential mode?

Can I create a dummy Cam 1 and do the active control using cam 2?

Some help would be greatly appreciated on this one
The TDC reference comes from the crank trigger, not the cam trigger on the 36-2-2-2. The cam trigger is used only to determine phase and camshaft position.

Are you sure it's 4 equal teeth on the back of the cam and not a 4-1 scheme (AVCS EJ's use this)? If so, you won't be using the 2 tooth signal, only the 4-1 tooth signal if I'm not mistaken.
I'm in the VA/DC area! Let me know if I can help you locally! I offer tuning and troubleshooting services.
http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 37&t=64269
Email me directly at CRSTune@gmail.com

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subatoy71
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Re: JDM Subaru EJ207 VVT Implementation

Post by subatoy71 »

Hi CRSTune,

No the 4-1 rear cam trigger is US only. This is a JDM engine- 4 evenly spaced triggers, none missing.

Check this out http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?page= ... woMinusTwo

Also the main cam trigger is being used as I am running sequential mode. Is it that the rear trigger will only be counted the first tooth after TDC on the crank signal and the other three pulses ignored?

Wont that also imply that I can only use VVT in non-sequential mode?
CRSTune
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Re: JDM Subaru EJ207 VVT Implementation

Post by CRSTune »

subatoy71 wrote:Hi CRSTune,

No the 4-1 rear cam trigger is US only. This is a JDM engine- 4 evenly spaced triggers, none missing.

Check this out http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?page= ... woMinusTwo

Also the main cam trigger is being used as I am running sequential mode. Is it that the rear trigger will only be counted the first tooth after TDC on the crank signal and the other three pulses ignored?

Wont that also imply that I can only use VVT in non-sequential mode?
Well that does make things tricky. It might be easier to just shave off 3 out of the 4 teeth on the camshaft, though that's a bit of work.

What about setting up VVT control for 4 VVT's? You could designate VVT1 as an exhaust cam using the main cam input. Set VVT's 2 and 3 to be your intake cams and you'll be able to select their own cam sensors. VVT 4 would be left as an exhaust cam.
I'm in the VA/DC area! Let me know if I can help you locally! I offer tuning and troubleshooting services.
http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 37&t=64269
Email me directly at CRSTune@gmail.com

Personal Vehicle:
'92 Nissan 240sx, KA24DET, GT2860RS, MS3X, Coil-on-Plug
tpsretard2
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Re: JDM Subaru EJ207 VVT Implementation

Post by tpsretard2 »

it is going to become a popular engine, should look at supporting this.
subatoy71
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Re: JDM Subaru EJ207 VVT Implementation

Post by subatoy71 »

Tpsretard,

I combed the forum last night for this platform and Im seeing things like grinding teeth to suit the decocoder, etc. Dont get the impression this trigger is supported. Sad.This MS3 install is the cleanest I have ever got these engines running. And thats compared to OEM and other bignamed ecu platforms I've used over the years. PS romtuning sucks!

I am reluctant to inform my customer I would be removing his newly built engine to grind teeth on his brand new, expensive performance cams. Im also not sure if the triggers on the available US verion of these cams are of a similar height, duplicating the airgap on the VR sensors.

I agree that the JDM version should be supported. Here in the Caribbean 99.999% of all Subaru engines are JDM. They are choice meat in the US too.

I furnished Ken with some data in 2010. My profile says Iyesterday I think but Ijoined in 2010. I've been off the map since 2012 I think. Here I am over 15 MS installs and a few repairs later.
:lol: Coincidentally, yourself and jasaircraft had responded back then too; two years later in 2013 there were some enquiries too.

In fairness to Ken and James, in retrospect I did a poor job of following up with more data. Dont think I had the resources either.
I will still make good on this. While I still have the car in my possesion I will borrow a vr conditioner from another MS and do a datalog on all 4 sensors. i.e crank, main cam, and both left and right triggers. I know both left and right intake cams have 4 teeth but Im not sure if their phasing is identical. At least we would have some solid data to work with. If they dont have it already...

Longer term I will make myself available for any testing since I also own a car with the identical engine. Been parked up since 2012. Time to dust it off lol!
tpsretard2
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Re: JDM Subaru EJ207 VVT Implementation

Post by tpsretard2 »

yup you are right, Barbados and Trinidad 99.5% of all subaru's and parts are JDM or EDM which share the same setup. I have been to a few other Caribbean territories and it is much the same. I would expect that a lot more JDM engines will end up in the US also soon, the 818 car and a few others that use a subaru as a parts bin to build it. Many people are now importing them. At the moment some are doing the usual reflash as they all have open source flash capabilities, but the usfulness of this quickly runs out and management is the only path to go.

The dirvability and features i get with the MS3 system are only seen with BIG name ecu's like pectel and motec. Even so, i have rumfuled the feathers of another car that actually has in a motec m800 and was interested in a megasquirt. But the AVCS scared him off also as he is not willing to open the engine to grind down his cam teeth..

EDM/JDM 2001-2006 single AVCS
Crank trigger, 36-2-2-2
Home trigger, 2 teeth 90deg appart (this is the same for all)
AVCS trigger, 4 at 90deg - moves when cam angle moves

Both AVCS sensors are HALL Effect
Frequency 300hz
Lo Limit 35
Hi Limit 45



I would love to get this setup, but i am suspecting that it will take an advanced user to talk with James for code testing and debugging. I am still months away from getting my new chassis up and running. i have gotten a stock ecu that i would flash while i also design a plug and play board for the ms3pro.
jsmcortina
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Re: JDM Subaru EJ207 VVT Implementation

Post by jsmcortina »

It's difficult to support every single combination, especially when some manufacturers have so many different trigger schemes for no apparently good reason.

However, for widely used or up and coming engines I would like to have full support. I never like the thought of grinding off teeth.

Please, if possible, present a clear explanation of what crank and cam patterns are there - supported with photos, composite logs and manufacturers diagrams.

James
I can repair or upgrade Megasquirts in UK. http://www.jamesmurrayengineering.co.uk

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tpsretard2
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Re: JDM Subaru EJ207 VVT Implementation

Post by tpsretard2 »

The USA spec sti engine are the only different ones actually. All the other location of the EJ20 engines with single AVCS (both intake cams) use the same 36-2-2-2 wheel on the crank and the 2 cam teeth, which i believe is working. (as there is a PNP model for this)

The EDM/JDM and latin american engines use 4 evenly spaced teeth on the intake cams. Timing tables are hard to find but i will see what i can do. might have to wait till i have the engine in the car (which will be some time) or if someone is able now, take a high speed capture of the engine.
subatoy71
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Re: JDM Subaru EJ207 VVT Implementation

Post by subatoy71 »

Well that 36-2-2-2 crank pattern with two teeth on the cam sprocket is exactly what I have now. I have successfully run it in batch mode and its presently running in full sequential mode.
I got the donor MS to salvage the VR conditioner from today. I will see what I can do to add the left and right four tooth rear cam signals tonight, if not tomorrow. Might need to re-shuffle some inputs too. Hope I have some shielded wire hanging around somewhere...
tpsretard2
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Re: JDM Subaru EJ207 VVT Implementation

Post by tpsretard2 »

the Left and Right AVCS triggers (four tooth rear cam signals) are HALL sensors, not VR, so no conditioner is needed.
subatoy71
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Re: JDM Subaru EJ207 VVT Implementation

Post by subatoy71 »

Had to run off on an emergency tonight. Its too late to start so I have postponed till tomorrow.

TPS- I have seen lots of confusion about these sensors on forums like Nasioc but these sensors are all VR. The crank main cam and rear camm trigger sensors are alike, i fact have use a crank sensor to substitute a cam sensor before.
The
VR sensor .jpg
log pattern seen on cranking rise and fall in strength(bar height);typical characteristic of reluctors. My rule of thumb tends to say two- wire, magnetic its a vr, three wire almost always a hall sensor. of couse you can always check with an oscilliscope. VR or Hall won't matter as the decoder will recognise the trigger anyway. Attached some pics

James- I will check to see if I still have factory pics of the signal patterns though some of these might be in Japanese. I will at least interpret the figures. The datalogs of course should correspond.
tpsretard2
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Re: JDM Subaru EJ207 VVT Implementation

Post by tpsretard2 »

In factory condition. There are 4 positioning sensors for the EJ20 single AVCS JDM/EDM engines.
1. Crank sensor - 36-2-2-2 = VR (2 Wire)
2. (HOME) CAM sensor - 2 = VR (2 wire)
3. Right hand cam phase - 4 teeth = HALL (3 wire and your second pic)
4. Left hand cam phase - 4 teeth = HALL (3 wire and your second pic)

The Home Cam sensor in mounted on the left hand side behind the cam gear, the cam phase sensors are mounted on top the head to the back.
subatoy71
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Re: JDM Subaru EJ207 VVT Implementation

Post by subatoy71 »

Apologies for the delay but 'Ive been quite busy this weekend with other stuff.
In between, I managed to splice in the additional wires into my setup to cover the two additional sensors along with some other planned items I had on hold.

Could not find the right capacitor to test the new inputs to test the circuits on the stim in VR emulation. If memory serves me correctly, the LM chips on the vr card wont fire on the stim without an inline capacitor, but I think my wiring should be OK.

I'm not at home yet but should be able to post the logs in a few hours once all goes well.
tpsretard2
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Re: JDM Subaru EJ207 VVT Implementation

Post by tpsretard2 »

subatoy71 wrote:
Could not find the right capacitor to test the new inputs to test the circuits on the stim in VR emulation. If memory serves me correctly, the LM chips on the vr card wont fire on the stim without an inline capacitor, but I think my wiring should be OK.

I'm not at home yet but should be able to post the logs in a few hours once all goes well.

can you start by shoing me a pic of the sensors you have, sounds like you are making a vr conditioner where you do not have to..
subatoy71
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Re: JDM Subaru EJ207 VVT Implementation

Post by subatoy71 »

Sent u one already. Its the one titled VR. And yes it's a two wire just like the crank and cam. PS its a 2002 model. Gotta go... touch base again later
tpsretard2
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Re: JDM Subaru EJ207 VVT Implementation

Post by tpsretard2 »

i do not know what you have but i have never seen one with vr sensor's for the cam phasing. :Oi am at a loss
Unless you are sealing with an ej25x engine, or a type i have just never seen (and i have seen a lot). i know they use different sensors, but i never thought that they would be VR.

That said, the HALL sensors are so cheap that i would convert to them, no noise, no conditioning nothing. bolt in, wire in BOOM..

I have actually used them to replace the cam sensor and crank sensor when going to standalone's like the megasquirt :O
subatoy71
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Re: JDM Subaru EJ207 VVT Implementation

Post by subatoy71 »

OK got the adapter harness and MS back in. Not sure what log we needed but pulled 2 engine logs so far. They are both too large to upload it seems. I will do some much shorter ones tomorrow; unless I can email them.
Did add a snapshot of the signals though. Yellow is Main Cam, red and white are the rear triggers.
JDM VVT signals graph.png

My pin config is:

PIN 24- Crank Signal
MS3x -Main Cam input on Sprocket
PT5-JS10-LH Rear Intake Cam Trigger
PT4-RH Rear Intake Cam Trigger

TPS, all the EJ AVCS engines I've encountered here are all VR sensor equiped. I only heard about the Hall sensor usage a few years ago. Not sure if its on newer models or if its a US thing...
tpsretard2
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Re: JDM Subaru EJ207 VVT Implementation

Post by tpsretard2 »

The singals you screen shot look to be right. You might have to do a high speed capture of the crank, cam and 2 cam phase sensors for james.

But he can clarify exactly what is needed.
subatoy71
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Re: JDM Subaru EJ207 VVT Implementation

Post by subatoy71 »

It's pouring cats and dogs at my end. Wont be outside for a while.

Here is another screen shot to better represent the trigger positions
JDM VVT all signals graph.png
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