project running but fuel tables are massive

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Blue 12
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Re: project running but fuel tables are massive

Post by Blue 12 »

whittlebeast wrote:
Blue 12 wrote:Ive had 2 bikes running with this fueling setup with ms2 and set up a friends the same way, hes since upgraded to ms3x with the same fueling setup. not sure why it needs to be speed density only? the motec fueling on my bosses prostreet bike is like this. please explain why it shouldnt use the tps?
thank you
See if this helps

http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 34&t=63074

As a side note, I have a 300 HP blown Seadoo running Motec. Motec wanted me to learn how to tune their stuff.

Andy

ive read through the thread and will give it a second read, however i see you are using 2 tables, map and tps, so im not sure why you are telling me i shouldnt? is there a difference in fueling based on if i select what is primary and secondary load? (i thought they just added together)

thanks
2000 ZX-12R LSR turbo Worlds Fastest at 266.5MPH on board video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CruXgKKzBUs
ugp
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Re: project running but fuel tables are massive

Post by ugp »

You've no spark table for anything under WOT (100kpa). There's no afr correction under 100kpa either. Quite a lot of issues in the way it's setup. I'd suggest starting from scratch with it.
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Re: project running but fuel tables are massive

Post by whittlebeast »

The HUGE difference between our setups is you are turbo and I am ITB. ITB is a very different animal.
Blue 12
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Re: project running but fuel tables are massive

Post by Blue 12 »

ugp wrote:You've no spark table for anything under WOT (100kpa). There's no afr correction under 100kpa either. Quite a lot of issues in the way it's setup. I'd suggest starting from scratch with it.
It's a race bike. It really doesn't matter what it does when it's not making boost as long as it's driveable in the pits.
2000 ZX-12R LSR turbo Worlds Fastest at 266.5MPH on board video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CruXgKKzBUs
Blue 12
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Re: project running but fuel tables are massive

Post by Blue 12 »

whittlebeast wrote:The HUGE difference between our setups is you are turbo and I am ITB. ITB is a very different animal.
I have 4 throttle body's
2000 ZX-12R LSR turbo Worlds Fastest at 266.5MPH on board video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CruXgKKzBUs
whittlebeast
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Re: project running but fuel tables are massive

Post by whittlebeast »

But yours will behave like a turbo setup. Been there, done that.....

I will show you later, once you get the Turbo/Speed Density tune 98% dialed in, how to tell if you need a Alpha-N correction. Most motors do not need the correction when running turbo.

Andy
ugp
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Re: project running but fuel tables are massive

Post by ugp »

Blue 12 wrote:
ugp wrote:You've no spark table for anything under WOT (100kpa). There's no afr correction under 100kpa either. Quite a lot of issues in the way it's setup. I'd suggest starting from scratch with it.
It's a race bike. It really doesn't matter what it does when it's not making boost as long as it's driveable in the pits.
I'm not arguing that, I'm saying it's not the right way to set it up. Since you're on here asking for advice on a setup you can't get working correctly, it might be wise to take some advice offered by others that have both been there and done it, on numerous occasions.
Blue 12
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Re: project running but fuel tables are massive

Post by Blue 12 »

whittlebeast wrote:But yours will behave like a turbo setup. Been there, done that.....

I will show you later, once you get the Turbo/Speed Density tune 98% dialed in, how to tell if you need a Alpha-N correction. Most motors do not need the correction when running turbo.

Andy

I would like to get all the tuning done with one trip to the dyno. its not really a huge deal as its where i work, but its asking a favor of my boss to get him to work on my stuff. he would rather spend his off time not doing more shop work. cant blame him.

so, can i set it up with 2 tables and just have 1 value for the entire tps table( 0 or 100?) , tune map, and then if it needs any tweaks, its there and we just go to the tps table for fine adjustments?

also, whether it be right or wrong, my boss kinda has a system of tuning and its based on tps, then map. we will tune a bike na or the lowest possible boost setting for all throttle positions,(say we do a 5% tps run, we just go through the tps row and adjust that based on the rpm and afr the dyno displays, then go to the next tps row ) then do wot runs for each level of boost, usually in 2-3 psi jumps. it seems to work fine for part throttle in boost later on. im sure thats how hes going to want to do it, instead of chasing a moving map value. or is the ve analyze live worth getting for this very thing?
2000 ZX-12R LSR turbo Worlds Fastest at 266.5MPH on board video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CruXgKKzBUs
Blue 12
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Re: project running but fuel tables are massive

Post by Blue 12 »

ugp wrote:
Blue 12 wrote:
ugp wrote:You've no spark table for anything under WOT (100kpa). There's no afr correction under 100kpa either. Quite a lot of issues in the way it's setup. I'd suggest starting from scratch with it.
It's a race bike. It really doesn't matter what it does when it's not making boost as long as it's driveable in the pits.
I'm not arguing that, I'm saying it's not the right way to set it up. Since you're on here asking for advice on a setup you can't get working correctly, it might be wise to take some advice offered by others that have both been there and done it, on numerous occasions.

im asking for help in determining why this ms3 is putting out nearly triple the duty cycle it should be to get the proper afr. please explain how the timing table or afr correction point impact that.
2000 ZX-12R LSR turbo Worlds Fastest at 266.5MPH on board video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CruXgKKzBUs
billr
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Re: project running but fuel tables are massive

Post by billr »

We are going in circles here, and it isn't helping any that the "req_fuel" keeps changing so wildly. Flow the injectors, with your fuel supply system and drivers, then set "req_fuel" to the correct value and leave it alone. Testing for dead-time is a bit of a pain, but flowing for rate is pretty easy; quit resisting doing that to get proper data for the MS to be using. Then post that MSQ and a relevant data MSL.

If doing the flow-rate check doesn't reveal an obvious reason for the odd VE values, then consider that the O2 sense system may be way off. How do the plugs look, how is the engine actually running?
slow_hemi6
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Re: project running but fuel tables are massive

Post by slow_hemi6 »

Blue 12 wrote: im asking for help in determining why this ms3 is putting out nearly triple the duty cycle it should be to get the proper afr. please explain how the timing table or afr correction point impact that.
Knowledge is power. I still say get a scope and see what the effective pulsewidth at the injector is. Duty cycle is the value of on time% for a given pulsewidth. It's value is dependent on the total pulsewidth/frequency. You got race bikes and work on them right, you will have spent more money on your helmet than a cheap scope, you will have heaps of single unit tools worth more than a cheap scope. How much would you spend on a torque wrench that your workshop could not be without? Then again you must be among a crowd (guys that work on and race bikes) that surely someone must have a scope?
Find the Manuals up top under Quick links: Manuals. :RTFM:
Cheers Luke
Blue 12
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Re: project running but fuel tables are massive

Post by Blue 12 »

slow_hemi6 wrote:
Blue 12 wrote: im asking for help in determining why this ms3 is putting out nearly triple the duty cycle it should be to get the proper afr. please explain how the timing table or afr correction point impact that.
Knowledge is power. I still say get a scope and see what the effective pulsewidth at the injector is. Duty cycle is the value of on time% for a given pulsewidth. It's value is dependent on the total pulsewidth/frequency. You got race bikes and work on them right, you will have spent more money on your helmet than a cheap scope, you will have heaps of single unit tools worth more than a cheap scope. How much would you spend on a torque wrench that your workshop could not be without? Then again you must be among a crowd (guys that work on and race bikes) that surely someone must have a scope?
honestly my boss has nearly everything snap on offers, but no scope :( ive never used one, but would really like to get a cheap unit to play around with and learn.
i keep referring to dc as thats the only number i have to compare to from the other tuning software that ties into the oem ecu. (power commander3usb). i know my friends bike which is a very similar setup will idle on 1.9 ms. mine is in the 5-6 area.
2000 ZX-12R LSR turbo Worlds Fastest at 266.5MPH on board video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CruXgKKzBUs
Blue 12
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Re: project running but fuel tables are massive

Post by Blue 12 »

billr wrote:We are going in circles here, and it isn't helping any that the "req_fuel" keeps changing so wildly. Flow the injectors, with your fuel supply system and drivers, then set "req_fuel" to the correct value and leave it alone. Testing for dead-time is a bit of a pain, but flowing for rate is pretty easy; quit resisting doing that to get proper data for the MS to be using. Then post that MSQ and a relevant data MSL.

If doing the flow-rate check doesn't reveal an obvious reason for the odd VE values, then consider that the O2 sense system may be way off. How do the plugs look, how is the engine actually running?

the inj were flowed last year by MPS http://www.mpsracing.com/products/MPS/I ... eaning.asp

its been ran on the dyno and race track since. the dyno has its own o2. tuning went as expected with these inj then. i dont think they shrunk to 1/3 the size since as it still runs great with the old ecu/tune.


req fuel changes wildly in the different tune files as the bike will only run on really high req fuel with normal fuel tables, or if the req fuel is closer to the ts calculation, the fuel tables are nearly maxed out for idle. ive tried several different setups, but all put out about the same dc/pw at idle. which is much higher than it should be to get the proper afr. if i put in normal numbers the plugs come out dry and theres no signs of trying to start at all.
2000 ZX-12R LSR turbo Worlds Fastest at 266.5MPH on board video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CruXgKKzBUs
whittlebeast
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Re: project running but fuel tables are massive

Post by whittlebeast »

Something is wrong.
billr
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Re: project running but fuel tables are massive

Post by billr »

Did MPS flow the injectors using your drivers and fuel system??? If not, then it doesn't count.

I'm kind of accepting that it isn't a problem with the O2 sensing, it really needs to have abnormally high PWs. So that leaves only the injector flow-rate being entered wrong, or the MS firmware being corrupted such that it seems to work fine, but incorrectly calculates the PW. Have you reloaded the firmware, to eliminate that?

I gotta go back and stare at your MSQ and MSL again... wish they were current ones.

Edit: Aw crap, the most recent MSQ and MSL weren't a "matched set", posted in the same reply. I don't want to bother until I know if they are related.
Blue 12
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Re: project running but fuel tables are massive

Post by Blue 12 »

whittlebeast wrote:Something is wrong.
ive been saying this from the start

I have dug out a ms2 from retirement. it was on a running drag bike 4 yrs ago(same make and model of bike). it has 2 seasons on it. ill see if the lsr bike behaves the same on the ms2 as it does the ms3. ill just do the basics, speed density, batch fire and wasted spark, if it runs on high dc, ill see about finding a scope, but im expecting it to run on normal numbers.
2000 ZX-12R LSR turbo Worlds Fastest at 266.5MPH on board video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CruXgKKzBUs
Blue 12
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Re: project running but fuel tables are massive

Post by Blue 12 »

billr wrote:Did MPS flow the injectors using your drivers and fuel system??? If not, then it doesn't count.

I'm kind of accepting that it isn't a problem with the O2 sensing, it really needs to have abnormally high PWs. So that leaves only the injector flow-rate being entered wrong, or the MS firmware being corrupted such that it seems to work fine, but incorrectly calculates the PW. Have you reloaded the firmware, to eliminate that?

I gotta go back and stare at your MSQ and MSL again... wish they were current ones.

Edit: Aw crap, the most recent MSQ and MSL weren't a "matched set", posted in the same reply. I don't want to bother until I know if they are related.

the injectors flowed properly on on their test machine. i obviously didnt ship them my bike and nobody else does for inj cleaning/flow test. if a ms inj driver isnt capable of running a high imp injector the same as any other ecu what good is it? i shouldnt need 3000cc inj to get enough fuel flow when another ecu can deliver enough with 1000cc.


more tests tmrw. hopefully ill have logs of a running ms2 setup, then back to back ms3 logs. i will pair them up with msq accordingly so its easier to sort out.


ive updated the firmware of the ms3 just recently. it was done about halfway down page 1 of this thread
2000 ZX-12R LSR turbo Worlds Fastest at 266.5MPH on board video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CruXgKKzBUs
billr
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Re: project running but fuel tables are massive

Post by billr »

Are you running a single table and set of injectors for now? What is the specific brand and P/N of the injectors, or DC coil resistance?
Blue 12
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Re: project running but fuel tables are massive

Post by Blue 12 »

currently doing tests with my other ecu. the ms2 has wet fouled my plugs a few times now, but im almost at the point of it idling ok, waiting on batteries to charge back up. i have it set up for wasted spark, batch fire. req fuel only 1ms, single digits now in the fuel table (speed density only) i started with 20/30s i believe. this is a massive change compared to the ms3, and dc is now mimicking what i saw with the oem ecu and power commander.

inj are 13.5 ohms, checked them a few days ago. they are a modified ford inj. my friend who did them told me its basically the same as an ID1000
2000 ZX-12R LSR turbo Worlds Fastest at 266.5MPH on board video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CruXgKKzBUs
Blue 12
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Re: project running but fuel tables are massive

Post by Blue 12 »

I couldnt get the ms2 to run well, between running the battery down and trying to light a rich mixture, playing with dwell etc, i burned up 3 coils trying to keep from fouling plugs and eventually gave up. something to note was the dc was very very close to what my oem ecu and power commander show when running gas at idle... i switched over to alcohol fuel, but it didnt help much. it never wanted to run on all cylinders for very long, kept bouncing around. i put the ms3 back on with new coils still running alcohol and got it running well at idle, and at a couple places in higher throttle positions. keep in mind this bike has been tuned to 10 psi boost on alchy on these inj and this fuel system.
moring after cleaning plugs.msq
trying to run 2.msl
3.msl
2000 ZX-12R LSR turbo Worlds Fastest at 266.5MPH on board video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CruXgKKzBUs
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