project running but fuel tables are massive

[Blue 12]

so i went through a bunch of testing and spark outputs seemed fine, but it would only run when brake clean was sprayed into the intake. kept adding fuel till it would run. tables are nearly maxed out.

some history. this bike has been raced 2 seasons in lsr. its a 2000 kawasaki zx12r. oem inj size is 330cc.(and it only comes with 4) i have 2 sets of 960cc inj. bike is turbo charged and runs on alcohol for racing. it was also set up with a map switch to run on gas to clean the system out after every race. right now im running on gas. the 4 primary inj maxed out around 340 hp at 10 psi boost on alchy. the secondary inj were driven by a microtech and provided additional fueling for more boost (made 533hp when we called it enough)

i had to pull a lot of fuel from the oem mapping to get the big injectors to run on gas. (obviously 960s flow more than 330s) it was just running a week ago on gas with the oem ecu and power commander gas map just fine. pulled that off and put on the ms3.

its taking like 8-10 ms cranking to get the bike to start and it runs at 5-6. this seems crazy high to me.

please tell me what you see

121h it runs but fuel tables huge.msq

LOG 1.msl

[slow_hemi6]

Generally what this means is your required fuel calc is no where near the real fueling the engine is getting/requiring. Fuel pressure? actual fuel injector flow? High impedance or low? Are you sure the injectors have a dead time of 2mS?

[Blue 12]

40 psi base pressure, same as it has been for 2 years, a little low as the twin Bosch 044 fuel pumps draw a lot of amps and its a motorcycle so low rpm amps are hard to come by.
inj have been cleaned/tested last year so i know they flow enough. very close to an ID1000. i have a set of those too ive used in another bike and you can barely tell the difference.

the dead time should be 1.069 but it seems like faking a little extra dead time into the calculation got it to run when i was adding so much to the tables. these are high impedance. my oem ecu cant run low.


ive just tried another file a friend got me to test from another similar bike. it showed no signs of trying to start until i cranked the req fuel waaay up (12 ms) and added some to the fuel table. it still wants about 5-6 ms to idle. at least its only a 75 in the table, i feel like ill run out in a hurry though

this is the tune from a friend. its way different, but its still running at about 5-6ms at idle to stay running just like my tune file

craigs tune with added fuel 121h.msq

[slow_hemi6]

Whether you run out or not will be determined by duty cycle. Keep in mind that sequential only fires an injector once per 720 crank degrees. Was the old ecm sequential? what kind of pulsewidth did it have at idle and how many squirts/cycle ?

[Blue 12]

yes the oem ecu is a sequential setup. its not friendly to tuning so a piggy back system has to be added to intercept the signals. i dont know what it actually puts out for pulse width or squirt cycles, it just lets you alter % of what the oem ecu is doing.

i have a couple other files from similar bikes running ms3 and 2ms in required fuel seems to be normal. 12 not so much.
i have a log from one of those bikes and its running at 1.9ms at idle where mines 5-6

[slow_hemi6]

Then it seems we are back to the bike not getting fueling that agrees with the fuel calc. Doesn't look like you are measuring AFR in the log or msq.

[Blue 12]

Then it seems we are back to the bike not getting fueling that agrees with the fuel calc. Doesn't look like you are measuring AFR in the log or msq.

thats correct. im in the middle of a turbo upgrade and put a na exh system on the bike for testing. i had this on and running fine with the oem ecu just prior to the ms3 going back on. it has a muffler so was the best choice to not upset the neighbors. down side is its ti and i dont have any ti bungs or filler rod, just ss.

if i lower the fueling it shuts off. if i spray brake clean in the intake it will run with that lower fueling setting, so im pretty confident its close to what it needs with the big numbers. it wont kick at all at 3ms, zero signs of trying to start. its as if im fighting a dead time of 4ms. if that makes sense

im thinking about sticking an o2 sensor in the exh (down the muffler) briefly to check it tmrw

[Blue 12]

Ive updated the firmware to 1.5.0, changed the fuel tables to something that looks more normal, and cranked req fuel to 20 ms. this is by far the best its ran with the ms3 to date, but something is clearly wrong with the fuel calculation!

121h new firmware 20ms req fuel normal tables.msq

log 2.msl

[ashford]

pw seems to correspond correctly with ve*reqfuel.
do you have good fuel pressure? the right injectors in?

[Blue 12]

fuel pressure is fine, same inj its been running on for 2 years

ive just pulled the ms3 and reinstalled the oem ecu with piggyback controller. the bike runs fine. duty cycle is only 24% at 10600 rpm free revving. 3% at idle(it was 9% on the ms3 at idle and 80% at 6000). something is wrong somewhere, but its not the fuel system mechanical parts.


https://1drv.ms/v/s!Ai4LncmtYX99mF2JtMlOUK7OWWip




next test is to try the ms3 with the primary inj on the main board outputs to see if its an expander card issue not allowing enough current flow??

[Blue 12]

pulled oem harness/ecu and reinstalled ms3, bike performs about the same on the mainboard inj drivers, but its a rougher idle. still crazy amounts of fuel being commanded to keep it running.

[ashford]

seems odd. i would try and turn off secondary fuel and staged injection and see what goes on.

[Blue 12]

it hasnt been into the secondary inj yet as it hasnt made any boost. so they shouldnt be affecting anything

ive ran it on a single ve table and its the same thing. i dont know how to test the current flow to/from/through the inj with anything i have. i dont own a scope and ive never used one. voltage is good at the inj when its running. (13.8v when i checked once). its like they arent getting a solid ground signal and arent opening all the way, so they need to be open a lot longer to deliver the right fuel.

[Blue 12]

Ive changed the ti pipe out to a regular ss with an o2 bung and its just as i was expecting. lean even though dc is high. i added fuel before tonights data log, but it was still lean at idle, and thats why it would shut off when i tried putting in lower values. i was finally able to get it to idle down by adding the fuel and it has shown the highest vacuum to date. before it was around 75, now im seeing 68-70. 70 being what i remember seeing from my ms2 zx12r drag bikes a few years ago. this still leads to the question why so much fuel commanded but none coming out? req fuel is set at 20 when the calculation calls for barely over 2.

obviously this is not tuned, so lets look at the section of the log at about 4700 - 5000 rpm. 16:1 afr, and 30% duty cycle. i didnt have afr with the oem ecu and power commander the other day, but it did tell me with this same fuel system i was at 24%dc at 10600 rpm. why are my inj acting smaller with the ms3? i have 20ms in my required fuel and the calculation says i should only need just over 2. my friends bikes with similar setups are around 2 and running well

new pipe with o2 sensor.msl

[Blue 12]

ive changed out the 8-1 crank trigger wheel for a 24-1. timing was fixed at 18, and good at idle, but advancing to 30 at 3000 with the 8-1. its solid at 18 with the 24-1 wheel up to 5k where i stopped checking. its still taking the same amount of fuel to run.

for reference the 00-03 zx12r came with a 16 bit ecu and an 8 tooth non missing crank wheel and single tooth cam wheel. 04 05 had the 24-1 and a 32 bit ecu. hopefully the higher tooth count doesnt cause issues at 13000 rpm. factory rev limit is only 11600, but we spin them up a bit more.

121h 24-1 wheel 20 ms fuel.msq

[whittlebeast]

You really need to go back to basics. The motor needs to be controlled by speed density fueling. I can help if you want.

Andy

[Blue 12]

Ive had 2 bikes running with this fueling setup with ms2 and set up a friends the same way, hes since upgraded to ms3x with the same fueling setup. not sure why it needs to be speed density only? the motec fueling on my bosses prostreet bike is like this. please explain why it shouldnt use the tps?
thank you

[slow_hemi6]

In an ideal situation you would scope the injectors to see if the actual injector pulse width is the same as what the MS is commanding. You could then compare to what the actual and commanded results are from the OEM controller.

[whittlebeast]

Ive had 2 bikes running with this fueling setup with ms2 and set up a friends the same way, hes since upgraded to ms3x with the same fueling setup. not sure why it needs to be speed density only? the motec fueling on my bosses prostreet bike is like this. please explain why it shouldnt use the tps?
thank you

See if this helps

http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 34&t=63074

As a side note, I have a 300 HP blown Seadoo running Motec. Motec wanted me to learn how to tune their stuff.

Andy

[Blue 12]

In an ideal situation you would scope the injectors to see if the actual injector pulse width is the same as what the MS is commanding. You could then compare to what the actual and commanded results are from the OEM controller.

unfortunately i dont have the required equipment.