Electromotive hpv1

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JIrons
MS/Extra Newbie
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 8:50 am

Electromotive hpv1

Post by JIrons »

I have an ms3 setup for fuel only, everything is working great. I am now ready to set it up for ignition control and wondering if anyone has ever used the hpv1 and how it was setup?
Thanks, Jeff
Sand scorpion
Engine:
2387cc aircooled roller motor
custom intake manifold w/45 lb bosch injectors
LT1 throttle body w/modified 4 wire iac valve
Electromotive dual coil ignition
AEM wideband 02 sensor
60/2 crank trigger wheel
MSD fuel pump
billr
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 6828
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 11:41 am
Location: Walnut Creek, Calif. USA

Re: Electromotive hpv1

Post by billr »

I would be tempted to "gut" the module and replace the existing circuitry with BIP373 devices, leaving the coils mounted as-is. Let me explain as much as I know...

I am using a (very) old Electromotive DIS coil module. It is a fairly simple unit, just logic-level inputs for each coil and rudimentary feed-back signal for dwell control. I drive the coil inputs directly from an MS3X, and ignore the dwell feedback; just use the dwell control settings in TS. Your unit, however, has considerable "smarts" in it that would have to be bypassed to let MS take control of the coils. I think effecting that would be more trouble than it is worth, considering that the BIP373 kits are only $10 each. I don't know about now, but in my old Electo modules the potting is very soft, easy to dig out for either gutting your unit or trying to mod it. If you are lucky, the existing drivers are traditional TO-220 style and you can easily mount the BIPs in place of them, getting proper heat-sinking and all.

Edit: I should add... when I say "gut it", I mean to remove components or cut traces as needed to leave the final output areas of the PCB still usable. You want to retain the PCB heavy traces and sockets that connect to the coils. If you are really lucky, the BIPs will have a pin-out similar enough to the existing drivers that little in the way of new jumpers will be required.
JIrons
MS/Extra Newbie
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 8:50 am

Re: Electromotive hpv1

Post by JIrons »

Hmmm. Thanks. I was hoping it would just involve wiring to the right pins. For me to do what you have suggested I would have to have someone draw out a schematic and tell me which components need to come out and where to install the bip and then back to ms3.
Sand scorpion
Engine:
2387cc aircooled roller motor
custom intake manifold w/45 lb bosch injectors
LT1 throttle body w/modified 4 wire iac valve
Electromotive dual coil ignition
AEM wideband 02 sensor
60/2 crank trigger wheel
MSD fuel pump
billr
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 6828
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 11:41 am
Location: Walnut Creek, Calif. USA

Re: Electromotive hpv1

Post by billr »

I'm not going to lie to you, what I suggested will take some effort and learning, and you need to be able to solder. However, the circuitry for connecting the BIP373 drivers is quite simple. I'm sure we could guide you through it, but would need photos of what's in the HPV1 module to begin with. It would be a gamble for you, once you tear into it there may be no going back; but I still think changing to the BIPs would be far easier than working around the existing circuitry.
JIrons
MS/Extra Newbie
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 8:50 am

Re: Electromotive hpv1

Post by JIrons »

I totally understand. I built my own ms3 and wired my engine from scratch, so I am pretty confident in my soldering skills. I just need help in identifying what circuit to modify and where to add the bip. I don't want to tear into the hpv1 until I understand what needs to be modified. Everything is working really well the way it is, I just don't have control of the ignition system.
Sand scorpion
Engine:
2387cc aircooled roller motor
custom intake manifold w/45 lb bosch injectors
LT1 throttle body w/modified 4 wire iac valve
Electromotive dual coil ignition
AEM wideband 02 sensor
60/2 crank trigger wheel
MSD fuel pump
billr
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 6828
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 11:41 am
Location: Walnut Creek, Calif. USA

Re: Electromotive hpv1

Post by billr »

The BIP373 connections are extremely simple. It is a 3-terminal device, one term to ground, one term to the coil primary, and the last term going to whatever 0-5 drive you use from MS, through a series resistor. The BIP, an insulator, and the series resistor are all included in the $8.50 kit. With an MS3 you can drive the BIP (through the provided-resistor) from either the MS3X spark outputs, or from the MS3 JP2 header, the MS3X is not a "must have".

NOTE: If I am wrong about that, if the resistor in the kit isn't adequate to protect the MS3 when connecting to JP2, somebody please chime in. I don't want to lead this OP astray so that the MS3 CPU is damaged!

If you are lucky, the BIP373 will connect to the same pads on the PCB where you remove the existing driver device. If you are really lucky, the "existing driver" will already be a BIP373; they are that useful for this purpose that perhaps Electomotive uses them too. We really won't know until we see what is inside the HPV1, but the most difficult part of this I anticipate is that you may have to add a #4-40 tapped hole to mount the BIP. I expect you can re-use the existing connector on the HPV1 case for the power/ground/signal wiring.
JIrons
MS/Extra Newbie
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 8:50 am

Re: Electromotive hpv1

Post by JIrons »

Cool thanks Bill. I've been trying to find a schematic for the hpv1 so that can find out what's in it before I tear into it, but to no avail. If anyone can find one I would greatly appreciate it.
Sand scorpion
Engine:
2387cc aircooled roller motor
custom intake manifold w/45 lb bosch injectors
LT1 throttle body w/modified 4 wire iac valve
Electromotive dual coil ignition
AEM wideband 02 sensor
60/2 crank trigger wheel
MSD fuel pump
billr
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 6828
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 11:41 am
Location: Walnut Creek, Calif. USA

Re: Electromotive hpv1

Post by billr »

Ha! Good luck there... That's one of the main reasons I turned away from a TEC and fell in love with MS. There seems to be no support from Electromotive for the DIYer.
JIrons
MS/Extra Newbie
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 8:50 am

Re: Electromotive hpv1

Post by JIrons »

I also love MS. So what ignition system do you use now or what others suggest upgrading to that won't break the bank? Like I said before I don't have any problems with the hpv1 other than ms can't control it.
Sand scorpion
Engine:
2387cc aircooled roller motor
custom intake manifold w/45 lb bosch injectors
LT1 throttle body w/modified 4 wire iac valve
Electromotive dual coil ignition
AEM wideband 02 sensor
60/2 crank trigger wheel
MSD fuel pump
JIrons
MS/Extra Newbie
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 8:50 am

Re: Electromotive hpv1

Post by JIrons »

I don't want to gut it unless I have a backup.
Sand scorpion
Engine:
2387cc aircooled roller motor
custom intake manifold w/45 lb bosch injectors
LT1 throttle body w/modified 4 wire iac valve
Electromotive dual coil ignition
AEM wideband 02 sensor
60/2 crank trigger wheel
MSD fuel pump
billr
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 6828
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 11:41 am
Location: Walnut Creek, Calif. USA

Re: Electromotive hpv1

Post by billr »

I'm using the old Electro DIS module that was part of the TEC system. It looks quite similar to yours, but the inputs are simple logic-level for the coils; no inputs for CKP sensor and no controls for dwell and such. The inputs connect directly to the MS, same as they used to to the TEC.

Your simplest "backup" would probably be a QuadSpark (sp?) unit from DIY, about $90 as I recall, plus whatever coils you want to use. Or, "smart" coils that don't need a driver and connect directly to MS, I think those go about $50-100 each. The advantage to using the (gutted) HPV1 is a bit less cost, and a handy base for mounting the coils, which you must already have mounted in the car. Little-or-no changes except inside the HPV1.
JIrons
MS/Extra Newbie
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 8:50 am

Re: Electromotive hpv1

Post by JIrons »

If I gut the hpv1 to add the drivers wouldn't I also need to reroute the circuit for trigger wheel sensor so that the ms3 can pick it up?
Sand scorpion
Engine:
2387cc aircooled roller motor
custom intake manifold w/45 lb bosch injectors
LT1 throttle body w/modified 4 wire iac valve
Electromotive dual coil ignition
AEM wideband 02 sensor
60/2 crank trigger wheel
MSD fuel pump
billr
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 6828
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 11:41 am
Location: Walnut Creek, Calif. USA

Re: Electromotive hpv1

Post by billr »

Yes, the CKP sensor would have to go to the MS, but you want to do that anyway. Accuracy of all MS events is dependent on that signal, and a signal from the existing 60-2 is about the best you can get! What is the present CKP input for your MS, a "basic trigger" from the HPV1?
JIrons
MS/Extra Newbie
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 8:50 am

Re: Electromotive hpv1

Post by JIrons »

Currently I have the ms3 setup for fuel only and only have the rpm signal from the hpv1 feeding it.
Sand scorpion
Engine:
2387cc aircooled roller motor
custom intake manifold w/45 lb bosch injectors
LT1 throttle body w/modified 4 wire iac valve
Electromotive dual coil ignition
AEM wideband 02 sensor
60/2 crank trigger wheel
MSD fuel pump
billr
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 6828
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 11:41 am
Location: Walnut Creek, Calif. USA

Re: Electromotive hpv1

Post by billr »

How about posting the current MSQ? I am unfamiliar with what that trigger setting is.
JIrons
MS/Extra Newbie
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 8:50 am

Re: Electromotive hpv1

Post by JIrons »

2017-03-25_13.11.47.msq
Here is my current msq
Sand scorpion
Engine:
2387cc aircooled roller motor
custom intake manifold w/45 lb bosch injectors
LT1 throttle body w/modified 4 wire iac valve
Electromotive dual coil ignition
AEM wideband 02 sensor
60/2 crank trigger wheel
MSD fuel pump
billr
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 6828
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 11:41 am
Location: Walnut Creek, Calif. USA

Re: Electromotive hpv1

Post by billr »

I'll have to read about that "fuel only" ignition setting...

OK, it's like I thought, just a "basic trigger" off of the coil negative. For sure, you want to use the existing 60-2 wheel to full advantage, feeding directly to MS.
JIrons
MS/Extra Newbie
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 8:50 am

Re: Electromotive hpv1

Post by JIrons »

After everything you've said and looking at the quad spark setup I might be better off using the hpv1 for a backup and building my own ignition coil driver with some bip373's and a couple of coils. I'm pretty sure I can build it basically the same as the hpv1 with an aluminum block to mount the drivers and a couple of coils.
Sand scorpion
Engine:
2387cc aircooled roller motor
custom intake manifold w/45 lb bosch injectors
LT1 throttle body w/modified 4 wire iac valve
Electromotive dual coil ignition
AEM wideband 02 sensor
60/2 crank trigger wheel
MSD fuel pump
JIrons
MS/Extra Newbie
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 8:50 am

Re: Electromotive hpv1

Post by JIrons »

20170325_170038.jpg
Sand scorpion
Engine:
2387cc aircooled roller motor
custom intake manifold w/45 lb bosch injectors
LT1 throttle body w/modified 4 wire iac valve
Electromotive dual coil ignition
AEM wideband 02 sensor
60/2 crank trigger wheel
MSD fuel pump
billr
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 6828
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 11:41 am
Location: Walnut Creek, Calif. USA

Re: Electromotive hpv1

Post by billr »

Yes, if you are comfy making the mounting block that, will be a great way to do it. I would use the same type of coil. I'm pretty sure it is like an SMP DR-39, used on a wide variety of GMs from '86-'09. It should be easily available for a long time to come.
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