MS Labs MS3 Basic to MSPNP Pro for '99 Miata

[poormxdad]

Folks,

Greetings.

I'm chasing some electrical gremlins and am trying an MSPNP Pro in place of an MS3 Basic. I figured it would be an easy swap. I have a good tune, and the car was running fine except for the occasional loss of sync. I started a new project, loaded 1.4.1 firmware since that is what I used in the MS3 Basic, and injectificated my tune into the PNP Pro.

Unfortunately, nothing seems to be working. I got it hooked up and running, but it wouldn't start without me giving it some gas pedal. After it warmed up a bit, it idled on its own, but at about 640 rpms, instead of 950, so the Idle Target Curve wasn't working. I checked the base timing, and it needed a 10 degree correction rather than the 5.5 that was in there before. The TunerStudio dashboard showed the tach and coolant temps and such working, but I knew something was awry when the cooling fan didn't come on when it was supposed to. It's like the PNP Pro is electrically there, but not controlling anything.

Was it a wrong assumption that the MS3 Basic tune would work in the PNP? Am I missing something else, like I need a different version of TunerStudio?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

poormxdad

[poormxdad]

I spent the better part of the weekend with the car and the PNP Pro. I reloaded the 1.3.4 firmware that came with the MS. I did not save any settings and started from scratch (as far as I know). I installed the Miata base map that came with the box, and hand jammed every number EXCEPT for the AFR, VE and Ignition Tables, which I imported from my good MS3 Basic tune. I checked every setting.

One weird thing... when doing a comm test, TunerStudio finds TWO controllers, even though only one is installed. One is found on USB (the MS3 Basic) the other (the PNP) on RS232. I choose the PNP and press on.

She started right up. I thought that I was victorious, but the O2 sensor still was not integrated. I tried all the analog inputs, but no change. The MTX-L was reading in the high 10s, but TunerStudio read a steady 12.5 without change. Does the hardware in the PNP Pro need smaller numbers in the VE Table to get the same AFRs as the MS3 Basic?

This time around, the Idle Target Curve was working. When she warmed up above a 150 degrees, I checked the base timing. She still needed a 10 degree correction.

In the amount of time it took to check a few settings, have the car warm above 150 and reset the base timing, the battery temp went above 110 degrees according to my laser thermometer. It's about 65 ambient here. I shut down operations at that point. I have the Alternator Control set to Off, which is the way it has been for the last four years. Does the PNP Pro REQUIRE some other setting? I wasn't willing to try something else with the battery temp rising. It continued to climb despite the negative cable being disconnected and peaked at about 119 degrees.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

I attached the hand jammed tune and a really short log I got after I found the battery hot.

[billr]

The alternator control is set to "off". I don't know the differences between your two MS units, but expect "off" won't work with either...

I'm assuming, of course that the alt voltage on that engine is intended to be controlled by the ECU. If not, then your regulator is obviously sick; 20V is too high for system voltage.

[poormxdad]

Off was how it was set up for the MS3 Basic and it had no issues. I tried to make the new tune for the PNP look like the one for the MS3 Basic as much as possible. I'll switch Alternator Control back to the defaults provided in the base map, but I honestly don't understand them. I would be assuming they are correct.

I still have to figure out why the o2 sensor isn't integrating.

Thanks,

poormxdad

[jsmcortina]

Perhaps your previous ECU had a hardware implementation of alternator control built-in?

James

[Matt Cramer]

The alternator control is set to "off". I don't know the differences between your two MS units, but expect "off" won't work with either...

I'm assuming, of course that the alt voltage on that engine is intended to be controlled by the ECU. If not, then your regulator is obviously sick; 20V is too high for system voltage.

Yes, '99 and later Miatas used an ECU controlled alternator, and you need to turn the alternator control on when running an MSPNP Pro on these cars. The MSPNP Gen 2 used a fairly simple (and less flexible) analog circuit to control voltage. Not sure what MS Labs did.

For the O2 issue, I see you have the MSQ set up to use the Analog In 2 on the rear options port. Can you confirm you have the right voltage from your wideband on that pin?

[poormxdad]

Yes, '99 and later Miatas used an ECU controlled alternator, and you need to turn the alternator control on when running an MSPNP Pro on these cars. The MSPNP Gen 2 used a fairly simple (and less flexible) analog circuit to control voltage. Not sure what MS Labs did.

Matt, thanks for chiming in. I plan to load the default values that came with the base Miata map, unless you have another suggestion.

My big questions still remains. Can I assume the VE and Ignition tables from my previous tune in the MS3 Basic will work without modification?

Thanks,

poormxdad

[poormxdad]

I put the Alternator Control defaults back in the dropdown menu and it's working fine now. I get 13.73 volts across the battery at idle. Haven't checked more than that. Fan control works now. I've got the Innovate MTX-L, so I chose the Innovate LC-1 default sensor (again) and that is working now, too, although TunerStudio seems to be reading just a little different from the gauge.

I have a couple of specific questions.

Under Engine and Sequential Settings, the old tune had Injector Trim OFF. The default in the provided base map has it ON. Which should I choose?

For the Idle Valve, I had been using a frequency of 511Hz. The default map had 383. Which is best?

Thanks,

poormxdad

[poormxdad]

Here is the latest tune and a log, still idling in the driveway.

It still needs work. She starts right up, but only runs for a second or two unless I give it a little gas pedal. However, it doesn't take long for it to run on her own. Also, while she's idling and warmed up, if I give it a little gas, say run it up briefly to 2000 or so rpm, the AFR gets really lean, and it takes more than a few seconds for it to come back down and the idle to stabilize. I think I need to go through the whole idle control valve setup again.

Still looking for an answer if my old fuel and ignition tables are still good.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[Matt Cramer]

VE and ignition tables should be OK.

Output pins almost certainly won't.

IAC duty cycles may need a complete retune.

[poormxdad]

Alrighty then. I did a complete IAC retune, but I'm still having cold start issues. I've attached my current tune and a log with two starts.

I put my right foot on the clutch so I wouldn't be tempted to assist. She started and ran for a few seconds but died. I turned the key off, turned it back on, listened for the fuel pump to stop, and started her again. She didn't rev as much as I thought she would, but she did keep running. On that first try, she could not have run for more than a few seconds, so I have a hard time believing it has something to do with temperature.

What could be different between the two attempted starts?

Thanks,

poormxdad

[Matt Cramer]

What's different between the two times? I see it took a little longer to sync, and although it doesn't yet register on the CLT gauge, the combustion chambers would have been fractionally warmer. I'd try a little more ASE and maybe a bit more duty cycle in the initial value table. Maybe a bit more spark advance at 700 RPM too.

[poormxdad]

Matt,

Those suggestions seems to have done it, although there's still some tuning to do.

Thanks much,

poormxdad

[poormxdad]

Folks,

I was doing some pulls through 6000 rpm to check for loss of sync issues, and the battery light came on. I think I had gone through third gear when it happened. That has never happened before. She seemed to run fine, but I brought her home without trying another pull.

The log shows min voltage at 13. I'm new to the Alternator Control pulldown, so I don't know if there's a setting gone awry.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

poormxdad

[poormxdad]

I think I figured it out.

In the Alternator Control Pulldown, WOT TPS% is set at 101.0, presumably to stop the function from working. I assume that is why the two sub-items, WOT Target Voltage and WOT Timeout, are grayed out. The log shows TPS went to 101.9, and it just so happens the WOT Target Voltage is set to 12.5, which is also what the log shows. So it seems that function was working, even though it wasn't supposed to be.

I don't see a setting for the voltage to make the battery light come on. And I don't know why TPS went to 101.9%. Although the extra power is probably welcome, since it's my track car, she runs at WOT a lot. Maybe set WOT Target Voltage at 13.1V???

Thanks,