Got dyno tuned, but power is down from before MS3Pro install

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DLRacing
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Re: Going to DYNO soon, need knock sensor info.

Post by DLRacing »

Thanks Matt. I'll have to get a Serial adapter and I'll do the update before I install the new sensors.
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Re: Going to DYNO soon, need knock sensor info.

Post by DLRacing »

I checked the DLG-1 and LC-2 and both are already running the latest update.
I got the new sensors installed. I originally had the cable connectors tied up on either side of the transmission, which made them a bear to access with the headers installed. I rerouted the connectors to the trans crossmember to make them much easier to get to.

It goes on the dyno tomorrow morning. Hope all goes well.

Thanks to all who helped out.

David
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Re: Going to DYNO soon, need knock sensor info.

Post by DHH »

Did you get the knock sensors to a point you're happy with or do you plan to play with them on the dyno?

Always like looking at dyno numbers. Post a pic when done.
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DLRacing
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Re: Going to DYNO soon, need knock sensor info.

Post by DLRacing »

DHH:
I haven't been able to get much usable knock data on the street.
I ended up having to set the knock thresholds to 80% just to keep it from constantly flagging knock and playing heck with the timing.

The tuner I'm taking it to is experienced, and will probably disable the knock control and tune the timing table for best torque at each rpm window.
Once the tune is dialed in, and if he has time, I'll see if we can experiment with the knock settings and get it working.
If not, I'll play with it later on the street. Knowing that the tune is right should help get more consistent data.

Thanks,
David
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Re: Going to DYNO soon, need knock sensor info.

Post by DLRacing »

My Innovate already had the latest firmware.

Git it on the dyno yesterday. Only made 525 RWHP with SAE J1349 correction.

Test drove it today.
I had to do a little more tweaking this morning to get the idle stabilized. Still could be better.

Biggest problem is the throttle response is nowhere near as violent as it was on the GM PCM.
Cruise is better, as it'll run along in 6th at 1,500, where before it was bucking below 1,700 rpm.
Previously, a stab of throttle would blow the tires off easily in 3rd, and sometimes in 4th, especially on cold tires.
Now it only skates around a bit in 3rd, and stays hooked in 4th, so it's significantly down on power from before.
If I'd known about the local dyno earlier, I'd have baselined it before swapping to the MS3Pro.

Tune attached.
I'll get the log files clipped and compressed tonight and post them here.
DLRacing
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Got dyno tuned, but power is down from before the MS3Pro ins

Post by DLRacing »

I changed the Subject, as I'm into tuning questions now.
Here are the logs, as promised.

To get the idle settled down, I had to steepen the Idle RPM Timing Correction Curve a lot. It now runs from +15* to -12*

The tuner also had the high kPa low rpm timing pulled way back in case the motor got lugged.
Trouble is, when the idle would dip, it would go into those cells, lose timing and stall.
I set the highest kPa cells in the 750rpm column much higher, and it helped quell the stalls a lot.
I'll never actually load the motor down there anyway.

I know the combination of big cam and light rotating assy makes idle control a challenge, but I want to get it as good as I can.

I heard back from the tuner. He recommended I add a few degrees advance in the areas where it feels soft, then turn on the knock sensors and see if they pick up anything.
It's pretty loud in the car, so I doubt I could hear ping audibly. I'll add a little at a time and see how it reacts.
He also said to try accel enrichment and see if a bit more fuel on tps opening helps. It doesn't really hesitate, it just feels not as strong as before in the midrange, so I suspect timing will help more than accel enrichment.

We also noticed my injector duty cycle is going over 100% up top, (Not sure that's really possible :o ) however, the AFR stays good all way to the rev limiter.
I'll probably go to larger injectors though, just because I like things right.
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Re: Going to DYNO soon, need knock sensor info.

Post by ashford »

there are a number of things in your tune that are not good. these are what stand out most and what are fighting the tuning process the most

1. ego correction is swinging wildly. it is too agressive and has way more authority than it should. this is your #1 problem at the moment, i would turn it off till the tune is more dialed in. then when that is done remove some authority probably down to 5 or so, do not use correction above about 80 kpa, decrease step size to 1(this really should be able to go to decimal placements) or use pid and experiment.

2. there is a big step in ve 40% around the 6500 90 kpa bin. there is alot of power(and fuel) wasted below that kpa and above that rpm.

3. accell enrichment there is a typo in the "zero accell above rpm" setting


after that i have to question your timing table, 25* on a 4 inch bore seems a bit low unless you are running really high compression on crap fuel. and the lower speed areas below 3000rpm dont seem right either.
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Got dyno tuned, but power is down from before MS3Pro install

Post by DLRacing »

ashford wrote:there are a number of things in your tune that are not good. these are what stand out most and what are fighting the tuning process the most

1. ego correction is swinging wildly. it is too agressive and has way more authority than it should. this is your #1 problem at the moment, i would turn it off till the tune is more dialed in. then when that is done remove some authority probably down to 5 or so, do not use correction above about 80 kpa, decrease step size to 1(this really should be able to go to decimal placements) or use pid and experiment.

2. there is a big step in ve 40% around the 6500 90 kpa bin. there is alot of power(and fuel) wasted below that kpa and above that rpm.

3. accell enrichment there is a typo in the "zero accell above rpm" setting


after that i have to question your timing table, 25* on a 4 inch bore seems a bit low unless you are running really high compression on crap fuel. and the lower speed areas below 3000rpm dont seem right either.
Thanks ashford: 1. I tightened up the EGO correction as you suggested. I assume Tune Analyze Live still works if EGO correction is disabled.
2. I see the step in the VE table. I think it's there because I never got above 6650rpm due to the rev limiter soft limit being set to 6700. Apparently it comes in a bit early.
I can't really get into those cells on the street for more than a split-second. If I try that in 4th gear I may end up in jail. LOL
3. I had set the Accel Enrichment to 500rpm because I couldn't figure out how to turn it off completely, to keep it from skewing my AFR's while tuning. I'll play with it next time I get to test drive it.

As far as the timing table, the local tuner said the fuel around here always seems to need 2* less advance than most places. As you can see it was still picking up power on the last dyno run.
Looks like another trip to the dyno will be required before this tune is finished. I'll probably go ahead and upsize my injectors before I dyno it again.

Thanks again for your help.

David
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Re: Got dyno tuned, but power is down from before MS3Pro ins

Post by DLRacing »

I turned off the EGO/AFR correction, and smoothed out a hole in the timing table a bit, which eliminated the wild variations in AFR.
I did some more autotuning as well.

It still feels soft in the midrange, and I see some knock retard in the log.
I have the threshold set to 70%, but am still unclear of what's appropriate for the other knock settings.
I have max retard at 12*, which is probably more than I need.
Could someone experienced please take a look at my knock settings?

One thing in particular I don't grasp is the Recovery Advance setting. The manual doesn't seem to fully explain what this setting does.

There are also time gaps in the log file. I notice a 3 second gap at 124 sec, right as knock retard starts, which makes it a bit confusing to interpret.
Anyone know what may be causing this? Am I logging too many parameters? I collect data on nuclear fuel for a living, and I tend to want to see EVERYTHING. LOL

As always, anything else you see that could be improved, please let me know.

Thanks guys,
David

PS: I did some work on closed loop idle later last night. I'll post that log this evening, but I want to work on sorting the knock settings first.
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Re: Got dyno tuned, but power is down from before MS3Pro ins

Post by benckj »

Just as an outsider trolling these threads have you considered adding some methanol to your tank or running ethanol to get the timing back plus control detonation? Might be worth considering once the larger injectors are installed.

I'm a 4 banger turbo guy and we keep close tabs on detonation firing high boost sessions. Water injection with methanol helps along with 10% meth in tank.

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DLRacing
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Re: Got dyno tuned, but power is down from before MS3Pro ins

Post by DLRacing »

benckj wrote:Just as an outsider trolling these threads have you considered adding some methanol to your tank or running ethanol to get the timing back plus control detonation? Might be worth considering once the larger injectors are installed.

I'm a 4 banger turbo guy and we keep close tabs on detonation firing high boost sessions. Water injection with methanol helps along with 10% meth in tank.

Jim
Jim,
Thanks for the tip.
This is purely a street car, that I occasionally want to take on trips, so I want to keep it tuned to run pretty much any 93-94 octane pump gas.

It's my understanding that as long as your fuel is good enough to prevent detonation before you reach timing advance for max power, you won't actually make more power with higher octane fuel, and running much higher octane than your motor needs can actually make less power.

I'd like to get the knock sensing setup to reliably detect and control actual knock, without all these false knock events.
If I can do that I'd feel much better about running more aggressive timing.

That said, I'm thinking of blending in some unleaded race fuel for the next dyno session, just so we can safely find the timing limit for best torque and power.

Thanks again,
David
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Re: Got dyno tuned, but power is down from before MS3Pro ins

Post by Raymond_B »

Just one thing to keep in mind, if you're using a Dynojet the load is something like 2800 lbs if I remember right. So you'll want to back the timing off a bit once you find your peaks. Unless your car weighs less :)
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DLRacing
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Re: Got dyno tuned, but power is down from before MS3Pro ins

Post by DLRacing »

Raymond_B wrote:Just one thing to keep in mind, if you're using a Dynojet the load is something like 2800 lbs if I remember right. So you'll want to back the timing off a bit once you find your peaks. Unless your car weighs less :)
We're using a Dynocom eddy-current dyno, so the load can be varied to tune steady states at different speeds.
Much better for tuning cruise conditions than a Dynojet.

BTW, it weighs 2838# with 3/4 tank of fuel.

Thanks,
David
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Re: Got dyno tuned, but power is down from before MS3Pro ins

Post by Raymond_B »

DLRacing wrote:
Raymond_B wrote:Just one thing to keep in mind, if you're using a Dynojet the load is something like 2800 lbs if I remember right. So you'll want to back the timing off a bit once you find your peaks. Unless your car weighs less :)
We're using a Dynocom eddy-current dyno, so the load can be varied to tune steady states at different speeds.
Much better for tuning cruise conditions than a Dynojet.

BTW, it weighs 2838# with 3/4 tank of fuel.

Thanks,
David
Awesome, and nice and light! This comes from a guy with a 4300 ln truck :)
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Re: Got dyno tuned, but power is down from before MS3Pro ins

Post by DLRacing »

Just ordered a set of 65#/hr injectors. DeatschWerks (16U-00-0065-8) 65lb./hr Fuel Injector, (Set of 8)

They're supposed to be flow-matched within <2%, and come with the flow sheet.
Any tips on using the flow data to setup dead time, and any other parameters that may be needed?
Also, what's involved in scaling my VE table from the current 43# injectors to get me close?

Thanks,
David
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Re: Got dyno tuned, but power is down from before MS3Pro ins

Post by prof315 »

DLRacing wrote:Just ordered a set of 65#/hr injectors. DeatschWerks (16U-00-0065-8) 65lb./hr Fuel Injector, (Set of 8)

They're supposed to be flow-matched within <2%, and come with the flow sheet.
Any tips on using the flow data to setup dead time, and any other parameters that may be needed?
Also, what's involved in scaling my VE table from the current 43# injectors to get me close?

Thanks,
David
Reset your required fuel for the larger injectors for scaling. Dead times really need to be checked/calculated using the MS injector drivers.
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Re: Got dyno tuned, but power is down from before MS3Pro ins

Post by 93supercoupe »

It sounds like you have a pretty good handle on tuning this thing your self.

If it were me, id get everything i could done on the street, then rent the dyno for a bit and play with the timing advance. Also, the dyno would be a good place to dial in your knock settings.

Being able to do steady state, you can keep the car at a rpm/load and increase the timing until you see real knock. Then you will know what kind of gain and frequency you should be looking for.

Of course, introducing knock is dangerous, but if your methodical, you could probably see the early onset of it before getting hard knock.
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Re: Got dyno tuned, but power is down from before MS3Pro ins

Post by DLRacing »

93supercoupe wrote:It sounds like you have a pretty good handle on tuning this thing your self.

If it were me, id get everything i could done on the street, then rent the dyno for a bit and play with the timing advance. Also, the dyno would be a good place to dial in your knock settings.

Being able to do steady state, you can keep the car at a rpm/load and increase the timing until you see real knock. Then you will know what kind of gain and frequency you should be looking for.

Of course, introducing knock is dangerous, but if your methodical, you could probably see the early onset of it before getting hard knock.
Thanks, that sounds like a reasonable plan.

I don't know if I'm comfortable inducing knock on a motor that's built to this level. It's probably a pretty fine line between detectable knock and parts breakage.

I do plan to find the advance point where power starts to fall off, but will probably blend in some race fuel to make sure we don't get into knock before that point.

Thanks,
David
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Re: Got dyno tuned, but power is down from before MS3Pro ins

Post by suberimakuri »

That sounds good David. Keep it safe. :)
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Re: Got dyno tuned, but power is down from before MS3Pro ins

Post by DLRacing »

My 65#/hr injectors from DeatschWerks came in yesterday.
Unfortunately, the data sheet has very little info, basically just flow numbers for each injector at 20%, 40%, 60%, 80% and 100% duty cycle.
I thought it was to have dead time across the voltage range included in the data.
Hopefully, I can find typical numbers for these online.
WIth the cam in my motor, it'd be impossible to do any kind of dead time measurement due to the idle being far too erratic.

I have a buyer for one of my boats, so spent this afternoon getting it out and ready to be picked up, so didn't get to work on the car.
Maybe tomorrow or next weekend. :roll:
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