BMW m60 ms3x help - no start

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BMW m60 ms3x help - no start

Postby abeebe718 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:24 pm

Disclaimer: this is my first attemp with MS or tunerstudio, and I've made some really dumb/obvious mistakes thus far, so if I'm overlooking something obvious, please kindly tell me I'm a giant idiot, but also point it out. kthnx.

Ok, basic setup is
BMW e34 540, turbo m60 v8
MS3X
DIY BOB, reusing the oem harness

Crank and Cam signal logging was successful, so I've moved on to attempting a first start. It sounds like it wants to fire, it kind of burbles like there's signs of life, but nothing substantial. Hoping I'm just overlooking a setting or something here, but if not, what should be the first things to trouble shoot? I can smell fuel so that isn't a concern. I think it has more to do with ignition timing. I played the cranking advance between 5 and 15 degrees, but no 'magic' number. Rpms show just below 200 when on the starter, spiking in the datalog. I adjust the cranking rpm setting from 200-700, but again, no major change. Thanks for any input

Attached is a screenshot of my ignition settings, msq, and datalog while cranking
Screen Shot 2017-04-22 at 12.42.37 PM.png
Screen Shot 2017-04-22 at 12.42.37 PM.png (139.03 KiB) Viewed 719 times

turbo m60.msq
(253.4 KiB) Downloaded 30 times

first start v1.msl
(103.66 KiB) Downloaded 28 times
turbo e34 540
ms3x full sequential m60b40
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Re: BMW m60 ms3x help - no start

Postby grom_e30 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 2:45 pm

Have you confirmed your coils and injectors are wired correctly per the firing order? and have you used a timing light to confirm your tooth #1 angle is correct?
1990 bmw 320i daily driver with m20b25 ms3 sequential fuel, 380cc injectors, d585 coil near plug, home made cam sync, launch control, fan control, vss, homebrew egt logging what's next????
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Re: BMW m60 ms3x help - no start

Postby abeebe718 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:36 pm

grom_e30 wrote:Have you confirmed your coils and injectors are wired correctly per the firing order? and have you used a timing light to confirm your tooth #1 angle is correct?


The injectors and coilpacks are wired 1-1, 2-2, etc and the firing order is set up in general settings if that's what your asking. Or are you saying that it should be 1-first cylinder fired, 2-second, etc?

I did not put a light on it, didn't have a extra pair of hands, but that is my next planned step.
turbo e34 540
ms3x full sequential m60b40
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Re: BMW m60 ms3x help - no start

Postby grom_e30 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:39 pm

It has to be wired per the firing order so a=1 b= next to fire and so on
1990 bmw 320i daily driver with m20b25 ms3 sequential fuel, 380cc injectors, d585 coil near plug, home made cam sync, launch control, fan control, vss, homebrew egt logging what's next????
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Re: BMW m60 ms3x help - no start

Postby abeebe718 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:58 pm

grom_e30 wrote:It has to be wired per the firing order so a=1 b= next to fire and so on


Well, I'll be damned. Thats pretty much par for the course are far as mistakes i've made. brb going to rewire. Will report back with hopefull a running video haha. Thanks :thumbs_up
turbo e34 540
ms3x full sequential m60b40
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Re: BMW m60 ms3x help - no start

Postby abeebe718 » Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:14 pm

Shout out to grom for pointing out the obvious. Rewired the injectors and coils and it fired right up! Not the prettiest, but it *will* idle. Now I'm chasing a wideband demon. Using an Innovate LC2, yellow wire is feeding the MS O2 input, but it's reading constant 5v and saying 22 on the afr guage in tunerstudio. I haven't confirmed this on the innovate gauge yet.

Also it sounds like either timing is waayy off or it has a misfire. Hoping for just timing, I'll have a second pair of hands today so i can double check timing after work
turbo e34 540
ms3x full sequential m60b40
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Re: BMW m60 ms3x help - no start

Postby grom_e30 » Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:48 pm

nice one for getting it going, try to confirm the tooth #1 angle is correct and you are getting the timing that the ecu is commanding. the wide band reading full lean may not be a good thing my lc1 would sporadically do that and peg full lean it was a bad sensor in my case.
1990 bmw 320i daily driver with m20b25 ms3 sequential fuel, 380cc injectors, d585 coil near plug, home made cam sync, launch control, fan control, vss, homebrew egt logging what's next????
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Re: BMW m60 ms3x help - no start

Postby abeebe718 » Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:28 am

Turned out the wideband wasn't grounded well and the misfire was from a few of the quad spark leads coming loose ont he adapter board. resoldered and it's purring like a kitten.
turbo e34 540
ms3x full sequential m60b40
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Re: BMW m60 ms3x help - no start

Postby abeebe718 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:55 am

even though i got it to start i'm going to continue to use this thread for troubleshooting....

so i got it running, and running fairly well on monday. let the autotune do its thing in lower rom range, and it was pretty happy after about 30 min of fiddling. Tuesday I went to start it to try and drive around the neighborhood and it was running like crap again at first, then wouldn't start at all. no tooth logging rpms. checked the crank sensor wiring on the break out board, and the ground was barely hanging on. when i checked continuity across the rippons, a few pins around it were 'pinging' as well, so i removed the wires from the MS side of the board and soldered them directly to the pins on the harness side. https://www.diyautotune.com/product/diy ... ch-88-pin/ <-- this is what i mean by adapter board.

Anyway, when it was running, would a bad crank signal cause a misfire? pt 2 of that, when it is running, the cam fault light is on, regardless of if it's runing smoothly or rough. I also still can't get a reliable O2 signal. I did rewire the ground to pin 19 of the MS (the sensor ground).

-Thursday update-

The crank trigger was indeed a source of troubles. Started right up and ran muuuch better yesterday. Still have the cam fault, and I'm still not getting a reliable O2 signal, constantly reads full rich ~7.5. Tried recalibrating the sensors, nothing. Tried the other analog output from the LC2, nothing. Went through all of the settings in Tunerstudio and believe them to be correct. I finally checked voltage on the LC2 outputs and was getting only 15-17mv, thinking my sensor is toast. Grabbing one from the parts store today and will see if that fixes it.

SOoo in summary, what are common cam fault reasons? and what are your LC2 settings like?
turbo e34 540
ms3x full sequential m60b40
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Re: BMW m60 ms3x help - no start

Postby grom_e30 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:24 am

i used the default lc1/lc2 settings in tunerstudio. you can connect to the serial output of the lc2 and view the afr via the logworks software and see if there are any error codes.

if you crank sensor if flakey it will cause sync loss, when this happens the ecu will turn off the fuel pump and stop firing the injectors and coils, this will feel like a miss fire / rev limiter.

the cam fault prob means you have the cam sensor settings not quite rite, the ecu will start and run in semi sequential fuel and wasted cop and switch over to full sequential when it sees a valid cam signal. is your cam a single tooth or a 50/50?

can you take a composite log of it running so we can see where the cam signal is at?
1990 bmw 320i daily driver with m20b25 ms3 sequential fuel, 380cc injectors, d585 coil near plug, home made cam sync, launch control, fan control, vss, homebrew egt logging what's next????
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Re: BMW m60 ms3x help - no start

Postby abeebe718 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:34 am

I tried with the Innovate gauge and was getting the same readings, which is why i'm leaning towards the sensor being at fault. Oreilly's has it for 49.99, so willing to grab one just in case haha.

Crank sensor grounding was definitely the issue. I was getting multiple sync loss errors before I rewired it, and now I'm getting zero.

The cam fault confuses me because in the log (at least the cranking log I posted in the first post) was clear. I'll attach a running one after work. Cam is a single tooth VR
turbo e34 540
ms3x full sequential m60b40
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Re: BMW m60 ms3x help - no start

Postby grom_e30 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:56 am

if you look at status1 in the log it is =8 this means the ecu has obtained half sync (crank sensor only) this is enough for it to run in wasted spark and wasted cop, if the cam signal turned up status1 = 136 synced with crank and cam sensor and the ecu will switch over to full sequential. so the cam signal was still mia in the first log
1990 bmw 320i daily driver with m20b25 ms3 sequential fuel, 380cc injectors, d585 coil near plug, home made cam sync, launch control, fan control, vss, homebrew egt logging what's next????
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Re: BMW m60 ms3x help - no start

Postby abeebe718 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:22 am

grom_e30 wrote:if you look at status1 in the log it is =8 this means the ecu has obtained half sync (crank sensor only) this is enough for it to run in wasted spark and wasted cop, if the cam signal turned up status1 = 136 synced with crank and cam sensor and the ecu will switch over to full sequential. so the cam signal was still mia in the first log


Aah. Could the pots just not be set correctly? signal wire has voltage at the harness and ground is going to the pin sensor ground in the main harness
turbo e34 540
ms3x full sequential m60b40
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Re: BMW m60 ms3x help - no start

Postby grom_e30 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:30 am

possibly make sure jp7 is removed and set the pots full counter clock wise for a vr sensor on the ms3x card
1990 bmw 320i daily driver with m20b25 ms3 sequential fuel, 380cc injectors, d585 coil near plug, home made cam sync, launch control, fan control, vss, homebrew egt logging what's next????
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Re: BMW m60 ms3x help - no start

Postby abeebe718 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:34 am

grom_e30 wrote:possibly make sure jp7 is removed and set the pots full counter clock wise for a vr sensor on the ms3x card


i know for fact jp7 is removed because at first I wasn't getting signal at all, checked that, and it was still on. haha. I'll give the pots a few more twists and see what happens. Thanks again for all your help man!
turbo e34 540
ms3x full sequential m60b40
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Re: BMW m60 ms3x help - no start

Postby grom_e30 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:01 pm

you could try changing the edge as well on 'second trigger active on'
1990 bmw 320i daily driver with m20b25 ms3 sequential fuel, 380cc injectors, d585 coil near plug, home made cam sync, launch control, fan control, vss, homebrew egt logging what's next????
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Re: BMW m60 ms3x help - no start

Postby abeebe718 » Fri Apr 28, 2017 3:17 pm

Heres a composite logger while it was running. played with the 'second trigger active' setting. No discernible difference in rising v falling edge, and it wouldn't start on polling.

2017-04-28_17.50.35.csv
(95.18 KiB) Downloaded 24 times


Replaced the o2 sensor for the LC2 and still can't get a decent reading. Wondering if my controller is shot...
turbo e34 540
ms3x full sequential m60b40
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Re: BMW m60 ms3x help - no start

Postby grom_e30 » Fri Apr 28, 2017 3:27 pm

you are getting 8 cam signal events per engine cycle, as opposed to the 1 its expecting. that will be the cause of the cam fault to many signals.

have you plugged your computer in to the lc2 to see what it thinks is going on?
1990 bmw 320i daily driver with m20b25 ms3 sequential fuel, 380cc injectors, d585 coil near plug, home made cam sync, launch control, fan control, vss, homebrew egt logging what's next????
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Re: BMW m60 ms3x help - no start

Postby abeebe718 » Fri Apr 28, 2017 3:43 pm

What could cause that? Signal noise around the wire? Or could the pots be set incorrectly? or is it actually polling and not a single tooth? i know the m62s used a polling style cam wheel, but the m60s were single tooth, unless 95 was a special year for whatever reason...

Wideband was drawing power from an iffy source as it turned out. Moved its supply and am getting more believeable readings. Recalibrating the sensor now to see if that fixes it
turbo e34 540
ms3x full sequential m60b40
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Re: BMW m60 ms3x help - no start

Postby grom_e30 » Fri Apr 28, 2017 3:59 pm

try adjusting the pots would be my first step if you are careful you can do this on a running engine while watching the composite logger
1990 bmw 320i daily driver with m20b25 ms3 sequential fuel, 380cc injectors, d585 coil near plug, home made cam sync, launch control, fan control, vss, homebrew egt logging what's next????
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