Megasquirt expectations

[Scott65]

So I'm new here, first post. I've been contemplating Megasquirt for awhile, but I need some help understanding what I can expect. I have a Pontiac (traditional V8) and am running FAST ezefi on it currently. And it is, well, easy... and I like that. I acquired a manifold that will do individual port injection so I'm considering changing. Been looking at Ms3, as eventually I'd like to end up with sequential fuel and spark. It will be a project that my daughter and I can do, including assembly of the components, which is one in the plus column. But as I read about it, it seems lots of folks have difficulty. So, I looked in the "Success Story" category here thinking it's the problems that people will usually post about. But even there, some people are posting "success" at just getting one to run... Success to me would mean the car runs and drives in all conditions, both on the street and at the track(I will ocasionally drag race). So after my long winded preamble, my question is, if I follow the directions, and use quality and compatible parts, can I reasonably expect to achieve success with reasonable effort? Reasonable meaning (to me) that within a month or so, working weekends and evenings, can I have a situation where the car runs and drives in all conditions at a level of say 90%? With the last 10% coming from a professional tuner? And I realize that this stuff isn't for everyone, and the possibility exists that I have no business attempting it. Would like some honest feedback on expectations and experiences. Thanks, Scott

[DaveEFI]

Assuming you install all the hardware correctly - sensors and wiring etc, and go through your tune file carefully setting all the basics, you should have it running well enough in a day of test driving. VEAL in combination with an O2 sensor has speeded things up enormously.

[gtmdriver]

If you look at any forum on any subject you will find that the balance of the comments is usually on the negative side. People tend not to comment when things just work as they are supposed to.

Like you I was a complete novice when I began the installation of a Megasquirt 2 V3 on my air-cooled Beetle engined sand rail.

I read all the relevant manuals carefully, asked questions on this forum when I was unsure, took care with each step of the installation, ran the specified pre-start checks and, after one slight glitch which was sorted quickly by members of this forum, it started first turn of the key.

I had it idling steadily within 10 minutes and within a day of driving with VEAL turned on it was running better than it ever had on twin carbs.

Since then I have gradually refined the cold start/fast idle settings and the acceleration enrichment and it is running really well.

It has still not been on a rolling road to optimise it. This will be the final step BUT if it never got any better than it is now I would still be very happy with the conversion.

The learning curve is steep but there is a lot of expert help available. Having done it once I would not hesitate to do the whole process again on another vehicle.

[whittlebeast]

Strictly follow the wiring diagrams in the Manuals linked above for your exact product. Use OEM quality sensors. Use OEM designed TPS as engine vibration can drive home designed TPS installs crazy. Crimp and heat shrink all wire connections. Get the real crimping tools designed for the connectors you are using. Last but not least, pay lots of attention to proven ways in the MS world ,to get crank and cam locations.

The tuning is the easy part once you get clean signals from the basic sensors. If you stay close to OEM engine specs, you can get very close to OEM driveability. Big cams, big clutches, light flywheels, turbos, blowers, NOS, and home designed intake and exhaust manifolds can make things can get messy fast.

Keep in mind that when people turn to asking questions on the internet, they were frustrated when they started typing the question.

Andy

[jsimmons]

Well, when i installed ms3pro on my coyote i was completely new to all of this. Ive never tuned a car nor installed a stand alone efi system.. i read everything i could before started into my install and i asked tons of questions and got help from people on this fourm. It no doubt saved me a lot of head ache in the long run.. contrary to popular beliefn support is fantastic for megasquirt.. while my car isnt running 100% yet but its not far off.. i attribute that to my inexperience and lack of confidence in my tuning ability. Along with being hesitant to make changes.. desipte all of that im 100% happy with the product and any short comings are operator error not the product itself..

[DaveEFI]

The problem often seems to be with MS that some expect a bespoke product at a ready made price. And if you don't want the bother of learning how to install it - part of the fun for many - open your wallet wide and pay someone for a custom installation.

One thing I would recommend is to draw out your external wiring diagram, using the MS one as a basis. Showing all the wiring colours you've actually used. Far easier to spot a mistake there than after the smoke appears.

[Raymond_B]

I'd like to add my .02 in that "Success" varies by person. I plan on having several levels of success, 1st is that it idles and runs in my driveway. Why is that? Because I have completely taken the vehicle apart, replaced the drive-train with all new components, re-wired the whole thing (twice actually 'cause I didn't like the way it turned out the 1st time) and learned a new EFI system. So heck yeah, success will initially be getting it going. The next measure will be the dyno, and then eventually the track, and past that will be driving back and forth to work in the Texas heat with the AC on and no issues.

Secondly, remember, that this is a support forum so people who do NOT have issues are out driving their vehicles! So be sure to keep everything in context.

Lastly please don't set yourself up for failure by buying an MS system, throwing it on, and then coming here and professing how you don't have time to learn and someone just needs to give you a tune "that's close". So many folks with issues try to shortcut the entire process by listening to billy bob on whatever forum and thinking they can copy vs. learn. <-- OK that's probably a rant and not advice, but I think you get what I mean

[Scott65]

All advice is appreciated, even in rant form (which I didn't take it as). I'm willing to do the work, and the learning. I have a personal opinion that I'll only stop learning the day they put me in the ground hopefully. My main concern is that the finished product will reward my work with a good finished product. My car does have a rowdy roller cam and such, but I would expect that not to matter with good tuning. I will more than likely use common GM sensors, with the exception of the crank wheel, not sure about that. Want to end up with sequential, so I'll have to use some kind of wheel. I'll be open to any and all suggestions, and for sure a success story from any using this stuff on a traditional Pontiac V8. My goal is to keep all my performance, with better tunability. Thanks again to all who replied.

[JoseMiguel]

I sell MS on my country and I have more than 150+ installs combining all MS products, mostly, for daily driven vehicles. Im currently at my shop (as I type this post) and I can see 5 cars running MS of the 10 I can fit in here, 2 of them are new installations, the other 3 are here for normal maintenance. Of course, I have ran into big issues during all this time but I can say that, considering a standard EFI car, we are able to install and successfully run a car from 0 to ready to roll in 3-4 hours at most (and what takes most time is making all the cables look nice).

The "success stories" forum is a nice way to see what other people do, but do not consider that as a way of measuring how successful people are with MS.

[billr]

Having two people active in this project will be a big advantage. Mistakes one person makes may be quickly caught by the other; always "two sets of eyes" on things. Yeah, maybe not a true "fresh set of eyes", but a lot better than making the same mistake over-and-over working by yourself.

The only complaint I have about MS is that the manuals (and other sources) have so much info available. It is easy to get overwhelmed or lost in that mass. Read the manuals, of course, but don't be afraid to ask questions. Use us as a comprehensive "index" for available info, if nothing else.

The only pitch I will make for hardware is to go for the MS3, and start out with a real missing-tooth crank wheel (36-1 or 60-2). That CKP signal is the "heartbeat" of any EFI system, so you want it as accurate as possible for a variety or reasons. By "accurate", I mean no timing scatter caused by slop in the cam/dizzy drive, and at least the 36 teeth so there is no more than 10 crank degrees until the MS gets an update on where the crank is and how fast it is turning/accelerating. With the missing-tooth type of wheel there are all kinds of ways you can get the engine up-and-running, and keep it running on the road, regardless of how the CMP (cam) signal is behaving.

Is this a Pontiac with the curved sheet-metal cover over the valve valley?

[Scott65]

Yes, the Pontiac V8 has the valley pan. Thanks for all the input. I imagine I'll be along with some actual technical questions eventually... One question I already have, how much rework is involved if you start with a regular MS3, then go back to add the Xtra? Or is it even possible to do sequential fuel without the extra?

[Six_Shooter]

Yes, following the manuals/instructions and using quality parts, with proper install techniques and proper settings you should be able to get an MS equipped engine running fairly easily. I'd say up to about 80% when first getting it running, up to 85 to 90% on initial tune and then the rest comes from datalogging, reviewing and tuning, though, I've never driven an engine that was "100%" IMO.

Putting an MS on a Pontiac shouldn't be too difficult, depending on what you plan to start with for ignition, which is the most difficult part IMO of any EFI install. A friend had EZ-EFi on his Pontiac, but it never ran right, turned out that the EZ-EFI couldn't deal with his cam and would never learn. So we tossed it aside and installed an MS3Pro with port injection. We are just running it in batch fire currently, but wired for sequential, if he ever decides to add it. We are also using an MSD dizzy to trigger the MS3Pro directly, which then drives the MSD 6AL (when it works) or the GM ignition module from a 4.3 Vortec (usually connected). Timing control is all through the MS3Pro.

I've installed MS on a few engines now and in a few variations, TBI, MPFI, 6cyl, 8 cyl, GM HEI style ignition, DIS, single coil, etc. I have yet to have any large issues in these installs. Any issues I did have usually came from not reading the manuals deeply enough, or having some setting just not quite right, but the engines still usually ran in spite of small issues.

I find the problems of others tends to come from failed or failing parts most commonly and they try to tune around these failures. Always remember, you can never tune out a mechanical problem.

While this won't be as easy to install and get running as the EZ-EFI was (or at least how they advertise), it won't be extremely difficult either, especially with the support groups and forums that are out there for MS products.

[billr]

Adding the MS3X is a trivial task, but you may find that you have wasted time building custom circuits if you don't have it right from the start. For instance, the MS3X handles an external MAP/BARO sensor, CMP input, many extra injectors, and more than one spark driver; all with no mods to the standard MS3 mainboard. Spend the extra $100 for the MS3X right from the start, you will want it eventually.

However, there should be no problem or mods needed to get this engine up-and-running nicely with the standard MS3; you will have to have "bank firing" of the injectors and use the dizzy rotor/cap to send spark from the single coil, but you will have full control of the spark timing and can use either high or low-Z injectors.