ms3 ultimate appears to be loosing sync?

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93supercoupe
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ms3 ultimate appears to be loosing sync?

Post by 93supercoupe »

Id normally be calling diyautotune on issues like this, but its the weekend and ive got a track rental in a few days.

Cars been running great. Life is good. Been semi-daily driving the car with out issues. Decide to do some asphault test launches. 2 of them went great. 3rd one got weird. when i shifted into 2nd, it was WAY down on power. Like way way down. Look at the logs, all seems to be right so i assumed it was mechanical.

on the way home, i rolled into it and it backfired in 1st, and had no power in 2nd again.

On the way home, the car starts bucking like its out of fuel. Wont go over 1600rpm. Feels like a rev limit.

At this point, it sounds like classic sync loss. Could be as simple as a bad cam/crank sensor.

BUT, why would it lose power and not show any change in vital signs? (afr good, timings right, map is right, ect.)

Anyways, heres a log of the issue, a log of the power loss, the tune and a composite log

MS3 Ultimate with DIYautotune PNP harness
6.0 LS
th400
twin s366's
Last edited by 93supercoupe on Sun May 28, 2017 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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93supercoupe
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Re: ms3 ultimate appears to be loosing sync?

Post by 93supercoupe »

Log clearly showing the issue
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93supercoupe
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Re: ms3 ultimate appears to be loosing sync?

Post by 93supercoupe »

Can the 24x run in semi seq with no cam signal? Im going to try it.

My biggest concern is the power loss. Im not sure how you can reduce the power of an engine with out moving timing, boost, or fuel and all of those were on point.
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Re: ms3 ultimate appears to be loosing sync?

Post by whittlebeast »

Looking at the composite log, it looks like the issue is on the crank sensor with an error code 68 as seen on the normal log.

Andy
93supercoupe
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Re: ms3 ultimate appears to be loosing sync?

Post by 93supercoupe »

yea i figured as i just tried it in semi-seq and wasted cop and it still ran bad

now it barely starts

still worried about the power loss
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93supercoupe
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Re: ms3 ultimate appears to be loosing sync?

Post by 93supercoupe »

2 new crank sensors make no difference

Can 24x ls run with out a cam signal? The pattern looks good but who knows.

To change the cam sensor I have to take the intake manifold off so that's why I'm asking
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93supercoupe
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Re: ms3 ultimate appears to be loosing sync?

Post by 93supercoupe »

Car runs more in wasted spark/batch but still won't stay running. Lots of crank errors. Not sure what could have happened short of it being a wiring or ecu issue
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Re: ms3 ultimate appears to be loosing sync?

Post by jsmcortina »

In the composite log you posted there's a tooth missing in frame 5 it's the 13th tooth or so on that page. It happens in a number of frames and always looks to be in the same place. See frames 5,6,9,11 - the fourth tooth after the cam falling edge doesn't always show up.

Time to check the crank trigger disc with a camera.

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nathaninwa
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Re: ms3 ultimate appears to be loosing sync?

Post by nathaninwa »

My thoughts were with James in the beginning but didn't post about it. We just had a member who was experiencing horrible issues and it turned out the stock 24x wheel had separated into two discs. Search user name DLRracing
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93supercoupe
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Re: ms3 ultimate appears to be loosing sync?

Post by 93supercoupe »

Yea im thinking the same thing. Brand new OEM crank in a brand new forged motor. That sucks.
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93supercoupe
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Re: ms3 ultimate appears to be loosing sync?

Post by 93supercoupe »

Does it appear to have slipped at all or just come apart? Can you tell if the trigger events are happening at the correct time in a composite log?

Thanks for the help. If its just separated, i maybe able to pull the pan and tac them together and make this event.
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DLRacing
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Re: ms3 ultimate appears to be loosing sync?

Post by DLRacing »

I'm the one who had the trigger wheel issues.
You can read the saga here: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 31&t=64824

On mine, the logs looked good, and looking at the CKP signal on a scope, it had an occasional very short noise spike, but otherwise the pattern looked good.
Apparently, the MS3Pro is a lot less tolerant of signal irregularities than the GM PCM was.

I ended up mounting a 36-1 wheel on the crank pulley, and using a 58x sensor looking at the side of the teeth for now.
When I rebuild the motor I plan to swap to a 58x wheel on the crank.

In my opinion, anyone rebuilding a 24x motor should swap to the 58x wheel to avoid these problems in the future.
At bare minimum I'd tig tack the 24x wheel together.

Good luck,
David
93supercoupe
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Re: ms3 ultimate appears to be loosing sync?

Post by 93supercoupe »

DLRacing wrote:I'm the one who had the trigger wheel issues.
You can read the saga here: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 31&t=64824

On mine, the logs looked good, and looking at the CKP signal on a scope, it had an occasional very short noise spike, but otherwise the pattern looked good.
Apparently, the MS3Pro is a lot less tolerant of signal irregularities than the GM PCM was.

I ended up mounting a 36-1 wheel on the crank pulley, and using a 58x sensor looking at the side of the teeth for now.
When I rebuild the motor I plan to swap to a 58x wheel on the crank.

In my opinion, anyone rebuilding a 24x motor should swap to the 58x wheel to avoid these problems in the future.
At bare minimum I'd tig tack the 24x wheel together.

Good luck,
David

Thanks for the heads up and i got very familiar with your troubles while i was having mine.

But unfortanetley, my issues are bit different.

I pulled the pan and found that the thrust bearing was cooked. It was so bad that it threw the alignment of the trigger wheel out of the range of the crank sensor.

As of right now, im 90% sure that it was excessive converter charge pressure and it pushed the converter so hard into the crank that it thrusted. Converter had ample clearance off the trans pump and i checked the thrust clearence when the motor came back from the machine shop before it was installed.

Sucks, but thats racing. And your right David, i will be rebuilding this with a 58x.

As of right now, it looks like the damage is isolated to the crank and bearings, but ill have it gone through and made right again.

This is my first auto car. I didnt know this was a thing to watch out for. Now i do so ill chalk it up as a 1500-2000$ learning experience.

Thank you to all that chimed in and the guys at DIYautotune that helped out.
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Re: ms3 ultimate appears to be loosing sync?

Post by Raymond_B »

Just curious, how much converter clearance did you have?
1995 Ford Lightning. Dart based 427 Windsor, Novi 2000, full sequential, E-85, etc. MS3X/v3.57
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nathaninwa
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Re: ms3 ultimate appears to be loosing sync?

Post by nathaninwa »

I'm curious too and who's,which converter it is as well
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240Z, 2JZ, MS3Pro boost control
93supercoupe
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Re: ms3 ultimate appears to be loosing sync?

Post by 93supercoupe »

It was a PTC 9.5 converter, and I had 3/16 of inch minimum.

What's the minimum clearance you would need to do this kind of damage?
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Re: ms3 ultimate appears to be loosing sync?

Post by Raymond_B »

The generally accepted clearance is 1/8 to 3/16. So you were on the high end. I'd also make sure the converter hub is fitting properly in the crankshaft. This is all fresh in my mind as I just installed my trans with a Circle D 258mm billet converter. I am actually going to have to run spacers to get the proper clearance.

Here's a good guide on clearance. I used a converter bolt and dial indicator to check mine.

http://www.coanracing.com/PDFS/InstallI ... nsConv.pdf


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1995 Ford Lightning. Dart based 427 Windsor, Novi 2000, full sequential, E-85, etc. MS3X/v3.57
http://www.buildpics.org/
nathaninwa
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Re: ms3 ultimate appears to be loosing sync?

Post by nathaninwa »

Which tranny? Each of my installs have has greater than 1/8 clearance but a little less than 3/16. My 80e and my Glide each had some mods to make to keep converter charge pressure under wraps. I'm running an FTI and Jakes converter and they each have the billet front covers and an anti ballooning plate to help with this
Volvo 940, 2jzge, MS3Pro, daily
240Z, 2JZ, MS3Pro boost control
Raymond_B
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Re: ms3 ultimate appears to be loosing sync?

Post by Raymond_B »

nathaninwa wrote:Which tranny? Each of my installs have has greater than 1/8 clearance but a little less than 3/16. My 80e and my Glide each had some mods to make to keep converter charge pressure under wraps. I'm running an FTI and Jakes converter and they each have the billet front covers and an anti ballooning plate to help with this
Me? Ford E4OD with 4R100 Diesel and billet internals.
1995 Ford Lightning. Dart based 427 Windsor, Novi 2000, full sequential, E-85, etc. MS3X/v3.57
http://www.buildpics.org/
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