Help needed - cam and crank not registering

General support questions and announcements for MS3. See also MS3 manuals.

Moderators: jsmcortina, muythaibxr

Post Reply
rmoehle
Helpful MS/Extra'er
Posts: 36
Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:16 am
Location: Kirkland, WA. USA

Help needed - cam and crank not registering

Post by rmoehle »

Hello all,
I'm stumped on getting my engine to start again after a comprehensive rewire.
Here's what I know:
I've tested fuel injectors and spark, and they all fire.
When I crank the motor, cam and crank only show intermittently on the logger. Then, the connection with the MS3 drops offline (connected via USB) and reconnects.
When I run a magnet across the cam and crank sensors, they spike on the logger.
(Note: the Composite log feature in TunerStudio isn't functioning as described on p.302 of the TunerStudio reference guide. I have to view the Tooth logger and Trigger logger separately.)
I put voltage indicators on the injectors and spark plug wires, and they are not being triggered, except for one weak "blip" on the last slowing revolution after I release the start switch.
I've confirmed the tune settings multiple times, but I'm attaching the msq in case anyone wants to give it a look-over.
Thank you for being willing to help,
Rob
MS3Pro on Suzuki 1.3L Turbo
Garrett turbocharger, Engine ported and polished, Ground cam, Forged dished pistons, Coil-on-plug, Dual fuel pump, Milspec lines
billr
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 6828
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 11:41 am
Location: Walnut Creek, Calif. USA

Re: Help needed - cam and crank not registering

Post by billr »

Do you have somebody that can check the "comprehensive rewire" for you, a second set of eyes on it? This is most likely an error in the new wiring, and will be impossible to catch from our remote locations.
rmoehle
Helpful MS/Extra'er
Posts: 36
Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:16 am
Location: Kirkland, WA. USA

Re: Help needed - cam and crank not registering

Post by rmoehle »

Yes, we've performed extensive wiring continuity testing, including a second set of eyes on all that.
It's baffling because the sensors all indicate properly in test mode, just not at the time of start.

The other part to my question is help with TS log viewer - I can't get the composite logger to show as advertised in the manual, and TS loses connection with the ECU while cranking - is that normal?

Thanks
MS3Pro on Suzuki 1.3L Turbo
Garrett turbocharger, Engine ported and polished, Ground cam, Forged dished pistons, Coil-on-plug, Dual fuel pump, Milspec lines
kjones6039
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 1986
Joined: Sat Jul 22, 2006 8:02 pm
Location: Eureka, NV USA
Contact:

Re: Help needed - cam and crank not registering

Post by kjones6039 »

rmoehle wrote:TS loses connection with the ECU while cranking - is that normal?
In a word.......... No!

Ken

EDIT: Just curious..... what is the voltage at the ECU during cranking?
1979 Corvette - 383 CID SBC w/ Holley Pro-Jection 900 CFM TBI, 4-85 lb lo-z injectors & Walbro 255 pump
MS2 v3 w/extra 3.4.2 Release
36-1, Delphi LS2/7 coils in wasted spark, driven by v2.0 logic board from JBPerformance
Spartan Lambda Sensor from 14point7
TinyIOX from JBPerformance
rmoehle
Helpful MS/Extra'er
Posts: 36
Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:16 am
Location: Kirkland, WA. USA

Re: Help needed - cam and crank not registering

Post by rmoehle »

Hmm I only have a dedicated voltage indication on the 5v line, but let me tap the 12v power in and see
Thx
MS3Pro on Suzuki 1.3L Turbo
Garrett turbocharger, Engine ported and polished, Ground cam, Forged dished pistons, Coil-on-plug, Dual fuel pump, Milspec lines
DaveEFI
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 4175
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:55 am
Location: SW London, UK

Re: Help needed - cam and crank not registering

Post by DaveEFI »

If you just crank with TS connected, do you see rpm on the TS gauge? Something like 200 rpm? Does a log of an attempted start show true engine RPM when cranking?

If not, you have a problem with the tach signal from your CPS. Without a reliable tach signal from the CPS, MS simply wont work.

Do you have Stim? That is useful to check the tach input on MS is functioning correctly.
Rover SD1 3.5 EFI
MS2 V3
EDIS
Tech Edge O2
London UK.
rmoehle
Helpful MS/Extra'er
Posts: 36
Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:16 am
Location: Kirkland, WA. USA

Re: Help needed - cam and crank not registering

Post by rmoehle »

RPM is intermittent - sometimes it shows, sometimes not. I checked the sensor off the engine, and it seemed to work fine.
Still having trouble getting the composite logger window to show just crank and cam - any tips here would be appreciated.
Didn't know about the JimStim, but I've ordered it and will do some troubleshooting and report back. Thanks for the recommendation!
MS3Pro on Suzuki 1.3L Turbo
Garrett turbocharger, Engine ported and polished, Ground cam, Forged dished pistons, Coil-on-plug, Dual fuel pump, Milspec lines
DaveEFI
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 4175
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:55 am
Location: SW London, UK

Re: Help needed - cam and crank not registering

Post by DaveEFI »

The JImStim may not produce an identical tach signal to your actual sensor, so with the V3 board VR input some adjustment may be needed between them. But if you can get the tach signal reading reliably with the JimStim, it usually means you have something wrong with your wiring or sensor or configuration.
Rover SD1 3.5 EFI
MS2 V3
EDIS
Tech Edge O2
London UK.
rmoehle
Helpful MS/Extra'er
Posts: 36
Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:16 am
Location: Kirkland, WA. USA

Re: Help needed - cam and crank not registering

Post by rmoehle »

kjones6039 wrote:
rmoehle wrote:TS loses connection with the ECU while cranking - is that normal?
what is the voltage at the ECU during cranking?
Voltage at the ECU is >12V static, but drops to ~8V during cranking. Couldn't find any required input V range, but I suspect this may be below the ECU's operating voltage.. I guess, now what?
DaveEFI wrote:If you just crank with TS connected, do you see rpm on the TS gauge? Something like 200 rpm? Does a log of an attempted start show true engine RPM when cranking?
Ok, I somewhat figured out the logger (still can't get the composite logger to work), and crank is working great (see attached image).
RPM bounces between 0 and 200, not exactly steady at 200. Could be because Cam is a secondary tach signal, which..

Cam (trigger) does not indicate anything. I tested voltage at CMP+ and CMP-, and they're a meager 0.25/0.2V! Thought it should be 12.. Ground is good.
I am using the DIY/A hall effect sensor https://www.diyautotune.com/product/hal ... on-sensor/

Circling in on the issue..
MS3Pro on Suzuki 1.3L Turbo
Garrett turbocharger, Engine ported and polished, Ground cam, Forged dished pistons, Coil-on-plug, Dual fuel pump, Milspec lines
billr
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 6828
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 11:41 am
Location: Walnut Creek, Calif. USA

Re: Help needed - cam and crank not registering

Post by billr »

Does your battery drop to 8V when cranking, or is part of that drop due to wiring from the battery to MS? Regardless, I think that should kick the MS off-line. All that is needed is a couple of volts above the 5V that needs regulation. I have tested an MS3 on low voltage, it works down to 6V on the "raw 12V". It won't boot up that low, as the POST detects too-low power and aborts the boot; but once it is alive it will keep going.

Are those CMP voltages (0.25/0.20V) AC or DC? Are those readings on each input, relative to ground; or a range of voltage between the + & - inputs?
rmoehle
Helpful MS/Extra'er
Posts: 36
Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:16 am
Location: Kirkland, WA. USA

Re: Help needed - cam and crank not registering

Post by rmoehle »

billr wrote:Are those CMP voltages (0.25/0.20V) AC or DC? Are those readings on each input, relative to ground; or a range of voltage between the + & - inputs?
That's VDC. Each wire relative to ground. (my service manual says it should be 10-12V in and 4-5V out, but that's for the stock sensor)
Thanks
MS3Pro on Suzuki 1.3L Turbo
Garrett turbocharger, Engine ported and polished, Ground cam, Forged dished pistons, Coil-on-plug, Dual fuel pump, Milspec lines
billr
Super MS/Extra'er
Posts: 6828
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 11:41 am
Location: Walnut Creek, Calif. USA

Re: Help needed - cam and crank not registering

Post by billr »

I think this another thread that I should back away from. The Pro has a different tachin circuit than I am familiar with, I think both inputs are "floating" relative to ground, but not sure. Sorry If I have mislead you or caused confusion.
rmoehle
Helpful MS/Extra'er
Posts: 36
Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:16 am
Location: Kirkland, WA. USA

Re: Help needed - cam and crank not registering

Post by rmoehle »

Still having this issue. Latest tooth log and MSQ attached. Cannot upload composite log because it contains no data.
MS3Pro on Suzuki 1.3L Turbo
Garrett turbocharger, Engine ported and polished, Ground cam, Forged dished pistons, Coil-on-plug, Dual fuel pump, Milspec lines
rmoehle
Helpful MS/Extra'er
Posts: 36
Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:16 am
Location: Kirkland, WA. USA

Re: Help needed - cam and crank not registering

Post by rmoehle »

Sure enough, JimStim was unable to produce a tach signal the board would read.
Replaced the battery, and removed some resistive relays, and the voltage issues are gone.
Here's what I'm facing now: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 31&t=67724
MS3Pro on Suzuki 1.3L Turbo
Garrett turbocharger, Engine ported and polished, Ground cam, Forged dished pistons, Coil-on-plug, Dual fuel pump, Milspec lines
Post Reply