MS3-Pro Sync Loss Above 5k - 60-2 wheel

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Paul_VR6
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MS3-Pro Sync Loss Above 5k - 60-2 wheel

Post by Paul_VR6 »

To start off I am no noob but please treat me like one just so the info may help someone later. I am having sync loss on a fresh install on a VW 3.2l 24v. 60-2 VR crank and dual hall cam triggers. Car loses rpm consistently at around 4800 or so. I have done a few of these personally, and this one is a customer install remotely with nothing "different" at least as far as I can tell from here. Just shipped him my spare scope to check crank signal on the board in the car but won't have data until later in the weekend at best. ECU is an older PRO unit I used for bench testing, may even be my original beta unit, this is not the first in-vehicle install of the ECU and has worked fine in the past.

Install details: 10k shunt resistor across VR+/-, 1k pullups to 5v on the cam sensors
Grounds all to battery neg
Power comes through power block into relay bank with ms power off it's own relay

On latest firmware 1.5

I don't think I have ever used a different value for a vw 60-2 but thinking it may be clipping the input and going to a 5k or so shunt may help.

Datalogs and msq attached below

** can't attach the tooth log, will host it later
Last edited by Paul_VR6 on Fri Jun 23, 2017 8:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
-Paul
1992 Corrado SLC 3.6 VR6 11.38@120 - MS3 Pro Ultimate - Microsquirt I/O - Can EGT - Racepak IQ3s
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Paul_VR6
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Re: MS3-Pro Sync Loss Above 5k - 60-2 wheel

Post by Paul_VR6 »

Logs
-Paul
1992 Corrado SLC 3.6 VR6 11.38@120 - MS3 Pro Ultimate - Microsquirt I/O - Can EGT - Racepak IQ3s
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Paul_VR6
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Re: MS3-Pro Sync Loss Above 5k - 60-2 wheel

Post by Paul_VR6 »

Just found that the shield for the crank sensor goes to pin 17 - serial ground and not sensor ground, not sure if that would make any difference or not.
-Paul
1992 Corrado SLC 3.6 VR6 11.38@120 - MS3 Pro Ultimate - Microsquirt I/O - Can EGT - Racepak IQ3s
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kaeman
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Re: MS3-Pro Sync Loss Above 5k - 60-2 wheel

Post by kaeman »

I would recommend relocating the main ground to the engine block not the battery...... we know that that will create all kinds of issues running the ground to the battery. Also check that the sensor wiring isn't running past the spark plug wires or next to the coils, might be inducing a signal. I ran into a problem with the ignition coil wires crossing the sensor leads after running parallel to them for a short distance, gave funny signals randomly( causing sync loss), I had accidently run the sensor wires on the wrong side of the intake runners for a test and then had not remembered to move them back to the correct location.
Good luck
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Paul_VR6
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Re: MS3-Pro Sync Loss Above 5k - 60-2 wheel

Post by Paul_VR6 »

Appreciate the input! After the owner triple checking the wiring and fitting a new crank sensor it's not picking up the crank signal at all now. We can get some blips with the sensor in hand and bits of metal but thats it. I am going to send him another unit to try and check this one myself.

On the grounds, I have done it both ways and never an issue. Car has cop and crank sensor is on the bottom of the block.
-Paul
1992 Corrado SLC 3.6 VR6 11.38@120 - MS3 Pro Ultimate - Microsquirt I/O - Can EGT - Racepak IQ3s
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ms3rx7
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Re: MS3-Pro Sync Loss Above 5k - 60-2 wheel

Post by ms3rx7 »

double post
Last edited by ms3rx7 on Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MS3-Pro Sync Loss Above 5k - 60-2 wheel

Post by ms3rx7 »

I know this is kind of old but my nearly identical issue brought me to this thread. First gen ms3pro, I have a hall sensor though, and a 36-1. SYNC LOSS REASON #2 at EXACTLY 5000 rpm cracked my engine block saturday night when testing to see if i had resolved the issue. The first time I saw this sync loss it was at 4800 and every time i've seen it it's been between 4800-5000 rpm. Strangely it only happens under high load. I can rev out the engine under lesser loads just fine. I have nothing to contribute to this but perhaps bringing this to someone's attention that might also have had similar problems.
Paul_VR6
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Re: MS3-Pro Sync Loss Above 5k - 60-2 wheel

Post by Paul_VR6 »

Strange as hall is nearly immune to this same issue. What sensor and pullup?

I finally did diagnose the issue, the shunt resistor, though installed, was open circuit under the shrink. Installed a new 10k and fixed it right up.
-Paul
1992 Corrado SLC 3.6 VR6 11.38@120 - MS3 Pro Ultimate - Microsquirt I/O - Can EGT - Racepak IQ3s
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ms3rx7
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Re: MS3-Pro Sync Loss Above 5k - 60-2 wheel

Post by ms3rx7 »

That's what I thought, and is why I went with a hall. I'm using the DIY tabbed hall sensor which doesn't require a pullup and the sensor is wired to 12 volts. However the 12v is taken from a terminal strip which the 4 smart coils, 4 injectors, and idle control valve all share power from. It's got a 40 am supply fed from my smartwire pdm. Think the Hall sensor would benefit from it's own individual feed to the battery?
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Re: MS3-Pro Sync Loss Above 5k - 60-2 wheel

Post by racingmini_mtl »

Taking power from the same source as the most noise generating components is not a good idea. Use the 12V supply (and ground) that powers the MS3.

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Re: MS3-Pro Sync Loss Above 5k - 60-2 wheel

Post by ms3rx7 »

racingmini_mtl wrote:Taking power from the same source as the most noise generating components is not a good idea. Use the 12V supply (and ground) that powers the MS3.

Jean

Thank you for the reply. It is interesting that you say that last bit. so I should not be using the sensor ground for the hall? At the moment it's wired up to the dedicated sensor ground. It ran through my mind that this may be a problem as all the other sensors are wired to 5v except for the hall, yet are all sharing the same sensor ground. Maybe this is a problem maybe it is not.

I will use the 12v MS3 power supply as suggested and send it to the hall sensor as well as use the same ground the ms3 uses which is currently ran to the battery. I may change this to the engine block as I've seen recommendations to do so. We'll see how that works.

thanks again!
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Re: MS3-Pro Sync Loss Above 5k - 60-2 wheel

Post by Paul_VR6 »

For hall senders I always use 5v feed and sensor ground.
-Paul
1992 Corrado SLC 3.6 VR6 11.38@120 - MS3 Pro Ultimate - Microsquirt I/O - Can EGT - Racepak IQ3s
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Re: MS3-Pro Sync Loss Above 5k - 60-2 wheel

Post by racingmini_mtl »

To keep noise to a minimum, the sensor ground should be reserved for analog signals (ADC inputs).

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jamies
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Re: MS3-Pro Sync Loss Above 5k - 60-2 wheel

Post by jamies »

have you put the 10k resistor parallel to the VR?
close to the ecu as possible
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Re: MS3-Pro Sync Loss Above 5k - 60-2 wheel

Post by Paul_VR6 »

racingmini_mtl wrote:To keep noise to a minimum, the sensor ground should be reserved for analog signals (ADC inputs).

Jean
I just follow the manual, ms3 pro puts it on the snsor return.

I usually put the vr shunt at the sensor connector.
-Paul
1992 Corrado SLC 3.6 VR6 11.38@120 - MS3 Pro Ultimate - Microsquirt I/O - Can EGT - Racepak IQ3s
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Re: MS3-Pro Sync Loss Above 5k - 60-2 wheel

Post by Manu »

Sometimes I get better results with 5k resistor rather than 10k.
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Re: MS3-Pro Sync Loss Above 5k - 60-2 wheel

Post by jamies »

yeah ive found anything more than 36-1 usually needs it
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Re: MS3-Pro Sync Loss Above 5k - 60-2 wheel

Post by Paul_VR6 »

Depends on the brand of crank sensor on the vws. The oem 10k is spot on, aftermarket can definitely want something different.
-Paul
1992 Corrado SLC 3.6 VR6 11.38@120 - MS3 Pro Ultimate - Microsquirt I/O - Can EGT - Racepak IQ3s
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