MS3X - Am I on the right track?

General support questions and announcements for MS3. See also MS3 manuals.

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billr
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Re: MS3X - Am I on the right track?

Post by billr »

Just to clarify: the pots can be turned endlessly in either direction without harm, but the screw being turned has a slip-clutch that releases when the pot mechanism gets to the end of its travel. Turning the pots many turns (12 or so) ensures that the pot innards are at "full travel", even though the screw keeps turning.
garrycol
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Re: MS3X - Am I on the right track?

Post by garrycol »

Thanks to both of you for your great responses on the dash pots. I will take the casing off and get adjusting.

On the other points I will just continue on with setting up the ECU using Tuner Studio and the simulator and see where I end up.

Cheers

Garry
billr
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Re: MS3X - Am I on the right track?

Post by billr »

I'll still try to address your other questions, just short on time right now.

Okay, back at it...

Tach - do I need a to invert the primary tach? On the stim? No, not necessary to use the stim for 60-2 or 36-1. I'm not sure about other modes, no experience.
- do I need a secondary tach and does it need to be inverted (what is a secondary tach) Again, not necessary for missing-tooth (either switch 3 or 4 "on")
Pull Ups - what are pull ups? These are resistors connected from an input to a voltage considered a "high". A pull-down would connect to a "low" (ground). Generally pull-ups are often needed with Hall sensors, but not with VR. However when the stim is simulating a VR, I think using that pull-up jumper on the stim is required.
- do I need a 5v pull up or a 12v pull up? It probably doesn't matter, for the ones on the stim used for the trigger simulator; again, I thinking only of 60-2 or 36-1 missing-tooth, other stim configs may be different.
Ignition LEDs - Which pin on the 10 pin header has to be connected to which pin (Ign Pin?) on the 19 pin header to make the ignition LEDS work?
IAC LEDs - When connecting the relevant pins from the 10 pin header to the A and B pins on the 19 pin header, does pin #7 go to 1A on the 19 pin header and pin #8 go to 1B on the 19 pin with #9 to 2A and #10 to 2B. I can't help right now with the LEDs on the stim, I haven't paid much attention to them or the LEDs on the MS. I do know there is enough info in the stim build instruction to test those stim LEDs out initially. However, I'm not eager to study how to use the LEDs, let's hope somebody familiar with them will join in here.
garrycol
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Re: MS3X - Am I on the right track?

Post by garrycol »

billr wrote:I can't help right now with the LEDs on the stim, I haven't paid much attention to them or the LEDs on the MS. I do know there is enough info in the stim build instruction to test those stim LEDs out initially. However, I'm not eager to study how to use the LEDs, let's hope somebody familiar with them will join in here.
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I really appreciate you taking the time to help me out and am about to start revisiting the circuits again based on all the answers provided.

Specifically on the quote above - when I built the Stim I tested the leds in accordance with the build instructions and all was good. However the "setup" instructions have a requirement to jump the ignition 10 pin header to he 19 pin header, hence the question "Which pin on the 10 pin header has to be connected to which pin (Ign Pin?) on the 19 pin header to make the ignition LEDS work?" I would have thought the circuitry would have covered it - just finding the instructions confusing.

Interestingly the pic that MegaMicra put up does not have this jumped so maybe I have just confused an build entry in the setup instructions and the jump is not needed on the operating Stim.

Thanks

Garry
MegaMicra
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Re: MS3X - Am I on the right track?

Post by MegaMicra »

I don't need to use those leds on the Jimstim as all my outputs are from the MS3X and these are shown on the JimstimX board.

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garrycol
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Re: MS3X - Am I on the right track?

Post by garrycol »

MegaMicra wrote:I don't need to use those leds on the Jimstim as all my outputs are from the MS3X and these are shown on the JimstimX board.

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Hmmm Ok - none of the instructions I have say anything about that but it makes sense - thanks for that information as I will cross that off my list of things to worry about.

Lots of progress

Thanks

Garry
billr
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Re: MS3X - Am I on the right track?

Post by billr »

I'll try to figure out tonight what you jumpers you need to test the IAC and spark outputs using just the JimStim. You will be using the MS3X spark outputs, correct?
MegaMicra
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Re: MS3X - Am I on the right track?

Post by MegaMicra »

So I think you are confusing yourself a little. Here is a picture of mine running on the Jimstim with the JimstimX connected. It's running full sequential fuel and spark.
As you can see the bottom row of leds are my 4 injector outputs and the 2nd row up are my 4 outputs to ign coils. Ignore the top leds as they're specific to my build.
Remember it's the MS3X board that is running these. If I didn't have the MS3X board installed then I would only be using the main MS3 and I would use those leds on the Jimstim.
Now; all those leds aren't on at the same time, I've just got it running at 6000rpm to show you them lit up.

Image


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garrycol
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Re: MS3X - Am I on the right track?

Post by garrycol »

MegaMicra wrote:So I think you are confusing yourself a little.
I was just following the instructions but yes I am confused - however I accept I most probably I have caused a some of that confusion myself. However the instructions are not the greatest - for eg they say to provide 5v power to the X from the Stim but do not specifically say to connect a ground connection - they say there are pins for ground and other functions but nothing more - basic to some but not others. I noticed this jump from your pic. Anyway ..........

However with your pics, comments and information provided by yourself, billr and others I am making progress and all should be good :-)

Cheers

Garry
MegaMicra
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Re: MS3X - Am I on the right track?

Post by MegaMicra »

Excellent. Yes, you're right they're not the easiest to follow. Sometimes you just need a pic to get you going.

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billr
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Re: MS3X - Am I on the right track?

Post by billr »

How about a recap on your current issues/questions? I am trying to follow along (and help?) in three sort-of-similar threads and am kind of getting confused.
garrycol
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Re: MS3X - Am I on the right track?

Post by garrycol »

Sorry been caught up with other stuff over the weekend - I will go over all the information and apply fixes over the next day and see what still remains unresolved - pics have helped immensely and have shown up some irregularities in the setup instructions for the Stims.

At this point I want to thank everyone who has provided information - is great stuff and has been an immense help.

Garry
107merc
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Re: MS3X - Am I on the right track?

Post by 107merc »

Hopefully it is OK to jump in here. I cannot find anywhere an explanation of what tach signal inversion is.
Could probably decide if I need it if I understood what it is. Thanks.
garrycol
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Re: MS3X - Am I on the right track?

Post by garrycol »

107merc wrote:I cannot find anywhere an explanation of what tach signal inversion is.
Whew - thanks for that :) I was beginning to think that I was the only one with issues. :o
garrycol
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Re: MS3X - Am I on the right track?

Post by garrycol »

107merc wrote:Hopefully it is OK to jump in here. I cannot find anywhere an explanation of what tach signal inversion is.
Could probably decide if I need it if I understood what it is. Thanks.
Well I have not been idle since my last post and in light of the information provided I have gone right over the build trying to better understand things. In doing so the only reference I found to tach signal inversion was under 5.2.14 Cam sensor input of the build instructions for MS3 where it says:
"Many ignition configurations are supported using a single 'crank' tach input e.g. distributor, EDIS, wasted spark
from a crank wheel etc. However, certain ignition combinations require two tach inputs 'crank' and 'cam'. Some of the OEM specific decoders compare the crank and cam signal polarities, the main tach input inverts the incoming signal, so the added cam tach input must do the same."
So that is all I can find on this.

Any way on going through the build process for the MS3, MS3x, JimStim and JimStimX I found the MS3 stuff pretty straight forward - I still have a list of questions and I will ask them individually (I asked too many questions at once above) when I am wiring the system up.

I actually found the JimStim setup instructions to be the most confusing and have now got mine rigged up like MegaMicra has in his pics - the difference are the dip switches as while I have a 36-1 trigger wheel it is going to EDIS8 and I understand that MS3 just sees this as a simple coil system so I have not set any dip switches.

So I will now start the programming procedure for the MS3X through TunerStudio and the JimStim.

So first question is what do I set the trigger wheel setting in TunerStudio - 36-1 or as I am going through EDIS 8 something else.

Thanks

Garry
MegaMicra
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Re: MS3X - Am I on the right track?

Post by MegaMicra »

You set the trigger wheel to what your engine has for the crank sensor input.

Edit: I think the edis system requires 36-1 trigger though. I'm not 100% on that though as I've never used it.

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DaveEFI
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Re: MS3X - Am I on the right track?

Post by DaveEFI »

EDIS does the trigger wheel decoding within the EDIS module. PIP has the same number of pulses as you'd get from a single coil setup.
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garrycol
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Re: MS3X - Am I on the right track?

Post by garrycol »

So even though I have a 36-1 trigger wheel I will tell tuner studio that it has a coil - if I under stand correctly.

Cheers

Garry
DaveEFI
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Re: MS3X - Am I on the right track?

Post by DaveEFI »

Isn't there an EDIS option? The JimStim is set to distributor/EDIS, though.
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garrycol
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Re: MS3X - Am I on the right track?

Post by garrycol »

I haven't gone back into it yet but I will check.

Interestingly I have spoken to a few locals online and none used JimStim at all - they all did their bench setup testing using actual sensors and setup up a trigger wheel in a variable speed drill. After I have played around with the JimStim and have finished the wiring in the car I might do the initial programming there. I can run my engine without MS at all on LPG so I can do all the sensor programming there with the engine actually running.

I appreciate the comments about the value of doing your own initial set up but a map that will get the engine initially running on MS would be helpful.

Anyone got a map for a Thor running on EDIS8, sequential injection but batch ignition?

Cheers

garry
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