Anyone else running a VW 1.8t on MS3Pro?

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wndrllama103
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Anyone else running a VW 1.8t on MS3Pro?

Post by wndrllama103 »

I've been fighting this sync loss at high rpm (#2 unexpected missing tooth) issue for a long time now, and I've completely run out of ideas.
I'm also running out of shielding tape. Figured I'd see if anyone else has a running 1.8t that I can compare wiring / setup to, before I have to buy more.

Engine is out of a 2001 Passat (AUG)

Crank sensor (vr):
CKP+ (white) to Pin1 (black)
CKP- (black) to Pin2 (blue)
Shield to Pin3 (gray)
- Install 10k resistor in parallel with Pin1/2

Cam sensor (4-window hall):
5v VREF (gray) to Pin1 (black/white)
CMP+ (yellow in shield) to Pin2 (green/gray)
Sensor Ground to Pin3 (black)
- Install 1k resistor in parallel with Pin1/2

I'm running Ignition capture on rising edge, Dual wheel with missing tooth, 60-2, at 78 degrees. Poll level, low at tooth 5. No noise filtering.
Shielding is continued from the MS3pro shield all the way to the plugs. The cam/crank plugs/wires are new from the dealer. New crank sensor + resistor plugs.

Runs fine from idle - 4K. I'm starting to learn more about this stuff, but I'm still a noob. A lot of trial + error here.
I had it running up to 5400rpm at one point. Then I replaced the plug trying to get more, and I haven't seen that since.

Note: I've gone through so many different trial / errors at this point, I'm using not using the MS3pro resistors that came with the kit. I'm using some 1/4W resistors that I bought online. Not sure if that makes a difference.

I included my tune just incase anyone finds that useful.

Thanks for any input.
Attachments
2017-11-01_21.13.58.msq
current tune
(266.4 KiB) Downloaded 54 times
Paul_VR6
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Re: Anyone else running a VW 1.8t on MS3Pro?

Post by Paul_VR6 »

I have done a number of them with the same settings.

Big things are triple check the noise filter is really off. Check sensor face for debris.

One other thing that I have noticed is 10k works great if installed at the sensor but if installed upstream (inside the ecu) I have had them have a similar behavior. Honestly don't know why.
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vw_chuck
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Re: Anyone else running a VW 1.8t on MS3Pro?

Post by vw_chuck »

Save yourself a headache and run a hall effect sensor.
prof315
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Re: Anyone else running a VW 1.8t on MS3Pro?

Post by prof315 »

vw_chuck wrote:Save yourself a headache and run a hall effect sensor.
Absolutely no need to switch to a hall sensor for CKP. Do check polarity of the sensor by taking a tooth log. The missing teeth should show as a single tall line . If it shows a tall line and then a slightly shorter one polarity is reversed.
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wndrllama103
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Re: Anyone else running a VW 1.8t on MS3Pro?

Post by wndrllama103 »

prof315 wrote:
vw_chuck wrote:Save yourself a headache and run a hall effect sensor.
Absolutely no need to switch to a hall sensor for CKP. Do check polarity of the sensor by taking a tooth log. The missing teeth should show as a single tall line . If it shows a tall line and then a slightly shorter one polarity is reversed.
Thanks; first I heard of that sanity check so far.

I think the tooth log looks fine at idle? I'm assuming this occurs at all rpms.
Attachments
2017-11-07_21.18.05-10k.tooth.csv
toothlog - idle
(5.23 KiB) Downloaded 30 times
billr
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Re: Anyone else running a VW 1.8t on MS3Pro?

Post by billr »

Yes, polarity looks OK in that log, and won't change with rpm. Post a tooth-log taken when the problem occurs.

I also feel a Hall sensor for the CKP is not a "magic bullet", keep using the VR and not introduce one more variable into this problem.
wndrllama103
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Re: Anyone else running a VW 1.8t on MS3Pro?

Post by wndrllama103 »

billr wrote:Yes, polarity looks OK in that log, and won't change with rpm. Post a tooth-log taken when the problem occurs.

I also feel a Hall sensor for the CKP is not a "magic bullet", keep using the VR and not introduce one more variable into this problem.
I don't have a pure tooth log of this happening in this configuration. Will a composite log suffice? It shows the unexpected missing tooth.

I'm at work right now; I won't be able to get a tooth log until tonight at best.
Attachments
2017-11-07_21.16.36-10k.nosync.csv
comp log no sync
(390.39 KiB) Downloaded 24 times
vw_chuck
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Re: Anyone else running a VW 1.8t on MS3Pro?

Post by vw_chuck »

I will never understand the guys that will fight to the death putting in countless hours trying to get a VR sensor to work. 30 bucks for a hall effect sensor and you are done. No screwing around till the end of time.
wndrllama103
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Re: Anyone else running a VW 1.8t on MS3Pro?

Post by wndrllama103 »

vw_chuck wrote:I will never understand the guys that will fight to the death putting in countless hours trying to get a VR sensor to work. 30 bucks for a hall effect sensor and you are done. No screwing around till the end of time.
Until reading your prior post, I hadn't even considered this as an option. At this point I'm open to anything.

I wouldn't even know where to start with replacing my VR crank sensor with a hall sensor. How difficult is this, and do you get the same timing resolution?
vw_chuck
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Re: Anyone else running a VW 1.8t on MS3Pro?

Post by vw_chuck »

Actually the hall sensor looks pretty much the same as the VR sensor. You may need to space it out more with a shim to get the right air gap and possibly enlarge the bolt hole. They also make a threadable one that will allow you adjust the depth. The only electrical addition you will need is power to the sensor as the hall sensor needs power. DIYAUTOTUNE has a proven hall sensor that works to 10000RPM. There are multiple hall sensors that are slightly cheaper and look exactly the same as the DIYautotune one but do not work very well so be careful.
wndrllama103
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Re: Anyone else running a VW 1.8t on MS3Pro?

Post by wndrllama103 »

vw_chuck wrote:Actually the hall sensor looks pretty much the same as the VR sensor. You may need to space it out more with a shim to get the right air gap and possibly enlarge the bolt hole. They also make a threadable one that will allow you adjust the depth. The only electrical addition you will need is power to the sensor as the hall sensor needs power. DIYAUTOTUNE has a proven hall sensor that works to 10000RPM. There are multiple hall sensors that are slightly cheaper and look exactly the same as the DIYautotune one but do not work very well so be careful.
Have you actually gotten this to work on a 1.8t with a stock 60-2 wheel, or is this all in theory? If the former, which one did you use and do you have any notes?

I'm not concerned with a couple extra dollars. I've blown so much on this project, it doesn't really matter at this point.

I just want to get this s*** working. The project has sat in the garage for the last month instead of outside on the warmest fall ever. Annoying.
vw_chuck
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Re: Anyone else running a VW 1.8t on MS3Pro?

Post by vw_chuck »

No I have not put a hall Effect on a 1.8t but I have run that hall effect on multiple other engines. The last one I put on an engine it took me around a day to make all the brackets to mount it on an engine that never had a trigger wheel from the factory so it should not take much time to put a hall effect on yours.
wndrllama103
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Re: Anyone else running a VW 1.8t on MS3Pro?

Post by wndrllama103 »

vw_chuck wrote:No I have not put a hall Effect on a 1.8t but I have run that hall effect on multiple other engines. The last one I put on an engine it took me around a day to make all the brackets to mount it on an engine that never had a trigger wheel from the factory so it should not take much time to put a hall effect on yours.
I'm not concerned with fabricating brackets.
What makes this tough is that the 1.8t trigger wheel is internal, so I'd be doing this blind unless I pulled the engine.

This whole idea is something to consider though. I'm literally out of ideas of what to do with the VR sensor.

There's also the chance that there's something wrong with the wheel. This came out of a donor car that I never saw run, and was owned by an older couple so I doubt it saw over 4K anyway. If this is the case, then a hall sensor wouldn't help at all I'm guessing.
wndrllama103
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Re: Anyone else running a VW 1.8t on MS3Pro?

Post by wndrllama103 »

After a couple tries, I was able to catch a tooth log when out of sync.

I also swapped back to my old crank sensor (I was able to get up to 5500rpm at one point with this) before taking some logs. I wanted to verify the depths and dimensions were the same. They were.

After I got the logs, just for s&g's, I switched over to wasted cop + semi sequential (just to simplify the setup). Same breakup at 4k rpm (not surprising).

I also look a tooth log at 3500-3700rpm, right before it starts to break up. You can see the interference starting to occur.
Attachments
2017-11-09_19.42.38-tooth.nosync.csv
tooth log - nosync
(5.1 KiB) Downloaded 29 times
2017-11-09_19.43.45-tooth.3500rpm.csv
high rpm tooth log
(5.32 KiB) Downloaded 24 times
prof315
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Re: Anyone else running a VW 1.8t on MS3Pro?

Post by prof315 »

vw_chuck wrote:I will never understand the guys that will fight to the death putting in countless hours trying to get a VR sensor to work. 30 bucks for a hall effect sensor and you are done. No screwing around till the end of time.
What countless hours? I literally have gotten 40 or more cars up and running without ANY ISSUES using VR sensors. Both using stock set ups and custom wheel/sensor/brackets. And VW VR6, 2.0 8V and 1.8Ts are some of the easiest to do.
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prof315
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Re: Anyone else running a VW 1.8t on MS3Pro?

Post by prof315 »

I just looked over your msq and you were NOT using poll level. Make sure that that is right and just for giggles try switching the CKP capture polarity. Yes most of the time it looks good on the tooth log but not always. You may also need to try different resistor values for the CKP shunt. And lastly while I have only seen it once , no name aftermarket crank sensors can cause strange sync issues.
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wndrllama103
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Re: Anyone else running a VW 1.8t on MS3Pro?

Post by wndrllama103 »

prof315 wrote:I just looked over your msq and you were NOT using poll level. Make sure that that is right and just for giggles try switching the CKP capture polarity. Yes most of the time it looks good on the tooth log but not always. You may also need to try different resistor values for the CKP shunt. And lastly while I have only seen it once , no name aftermarket crank sensors can cause strange sync issues.
Crap, I grabbed an older msq where I was running rising edge. I just learned about poll level last week. I had saved the tune, but that was currenttune.msq. Sorry about that.
The only real difference between the two are the cam settings. I'll upload the new msq anyway.

Either way, it shouldn't matter, right? I'm getting interference on the crank sensor (hence the missing tooth too soon error), not the cam sensor. Like I mentioned before, I switched over to semi-seq and wasted COP, and had the same exact problem.

>> You may also need to try different resistor values for the CKP shunt.
I've tried 1K,2K,10K,20K; combinations of inline + shunt (no combination with inline even got sync at cranking). 10k looked the best in the logs. Which isn't surprising, since that's what ms3pro suggests in their docs.

I understand that many people haven't had problems with the VR sensors just working. I figure it much be me doing something stupid. This is why I've dumped so many hours into this.

>> And lastly while I have only seen it once , no name aftermarket crank sensors can cause strange sync issues.
Would you consider the crank sensors from DIYAUTOTUNE (like https://www.diyautotune.com/product/hal ... on-sensor/) to be no-name?

what I'm actually doing when I ran these tests (so you don't have to look at the msq)
what I'm actually doing right now for ignition settings....
what I'm actually doing right now for ignition settings....
ign.settings.png (123.15 KiB) Viewed 1103 times
Attachments
2017-11-10_10.18.42.msq
updated msq with poll settings
(265.08 KiB) Downloaded 30 times
prof315
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Re: Anyone else running a VW 1.8t on MS3Pro?

Post by prof315 »

Have you tried both rising and falling edge capture?

When I say no name aftermarket crank sensors I am referring to no name stock replacements. Just had a 2.0L VW a couple of weeks ago, factory 60-2 internal on the crank just like a 1.8T, had a no name replacement sensor and sync issues. Put a genuine Bosch sensor in no more issues.
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wndrllama103
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Re: Anyone else running a VW 1.8t on MS3Pro?

Post by wndrllama103 »

prof315 wrote:Have you tried both rising and falling edge capture?

When I say no name aftermarket crank sensors I am referring to no name stock replacements. Just had a 2.0L VW a couple of weeks ago, factory 60-2 internal on the crank just like a 1.8T, had a no name replacement sensor and sync issues. Put a genuine Bosch sensor in no more issues.
I have tried both rising and falling edge capture. That being said, when I did I was still running full sequential. If I remember correctly (there's been a lot of iterations, and I haven't noted all of them).
I should be doing all of this in wasted-cop mode to reduce the variables in the equation.

As far as the sensor is concerned, the engine had a genuine bosch sensor, and I replaced it with a new genuine bosch sensor.

This is also a very unique setup. I have this in a mid-engine rwd mk1 rabbit. The main ecu harnesses come by the alternator as one big bundle from the front of the engine, instead of from the back of the engine like in most setups.

This shouldn't matter for the shielded cables, but is there a possibility that I'm picking up some EMI via some other means and it's causing problems on the ecu?
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Re: Anyone else running a VW 1.8t on MS3Pro?

Post by vw_chuck »

I run twisted shielded pairs for the cam and crank sensors on all installs. Also route them away from ignition components.
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