Subaru 36-2-2-2 VVT not running in full seq / COP

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Subaru 36-2-2-2 VVT not running in full seq / COP

Postby jsiedlicki » Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:01 pm

Hardware: MS3 Pro 1st Gen running firmware 1.5.1
Engine: Subaru EZ36R flat 6

I am having trouble getting my engine to run fully sequential and COP. I can get it to run semi-sequential and wasted COP. So it would seem there is an issue with the cam phasing.

I wonder if the Subaru 36-2-2-2 VVT wheel decoder is based on the EJ series flat 4 cylinder motors and won't work on the 6 cylinders? Anybody know?

Here is the motor's Crank & Cam Pattern
Subaru_EZ36_Flat_6_Crank-n-Cam.png
Crank & Cam Pattern
Subaru_EZ36_Flat_6_Crank-n-Cam.png (109.15 KiB) Viewed 282 times


I attached logs and the semi-sequential / wasted COP tune in case its needed.
Attachments
36-2-2-2_vvt_logs.zip
Composite,Tooth, Run Logs
(60.4 KiB) Downloaded 9 times
semi_sequential-wasted_cop.msq
Semi-Sequential, Wasted COP (working tune)
(280.09 KiB) Downloaded 10 times
MS3-Pro (6 cyclinder Subaru EZ36R)
MS2-extra (8 cyclinder Ford 347 stroker)
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Re: Subaru 36-2-2-2 VVT not running in full seq / COP

Postby jsmcortina » Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:31 am

I know that the 36-2-2-2 pattern was adjusted to permit the 6-cyl engines (the spacing is different.)

You may need to use a different cam signal as the primary cam input.

James
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Re: Subaru 36-2-2-2 VVT not running in full seq / COP

Postby jsiedlicki » Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:09 am

jsmcortina wrote:I know that the 36-2-2-2 pattern was adjusted to permit the 6-cyl engines (the spacing is different.)

You may need to use a different cam signal as the primary cam input.

James


I am currently using the intake position sensor RH (first one in the pattern diagram above). I assume switching to the intake position sensor LH would be the next logical choice. Can I do that in TS or does that require I cut the wires in my harness and connect CMP to the intake position sensor LH?

Also, do the setting in the VVT dialog have any effect on the cam phasing? Should I disable VVT until I get this issue resolved?

John
MS3-Pro (6 cyclinder Subaru EZ36R)
MS2-extra (8 cyclinder Ford 347 stroker)
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Re: Subaru 36-2-2-2 VVT not running in full seq / COP

Postby jsiedlicki » Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:48 am

As suggested by James, I tried running using the other intake camshaft for the "Cam Input" in the "Ignition Options/Wheel Decoder" dialog box with no luck. Spits and backfires even worse. I took a composite log using both intake cams and they both show full sync after a few cranks. I thought that was quite strange. I attached them both in case it helps.

I was able to run the engine up to operating temperature using full sequential and wasted COP. I turned off VVT in Tuner Studio and unplugged the oil control solenoids in case they were making things worse. Tune and run log also attached.

Any ideas on what to check next?
Attachments
full-cop-RH-2017-12-01_09.45.24.csv
Right side cam (cylinder #1 bank) composite log
(10.81 KiB) Downloaded 5 times
full-cop-LH-2017-12-01_09.45.24.csv
Left side cam composite log
(10.75 KiB) Downloaded 6 times
Full_Sequential-Wasted_COP.zip
Tune and run log
(711.71 KiB) Downloaded 9 times
MS3-Pro (6 cyclinder Subaru EZ36R)
MS2-extra (8 cyclinder Ford 347 stroker)
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Re: Subaru 36-2-2-2 VVT not running in full seq / COP

Postby jsiedlicki » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:08 am

As a test, I swapped the coil pairs to test the theory that the ECU is firing the coils during the exhaust stroke and not the power stroke. At the ECU connector I swapped the coil trigger wires for the cylinder banks (1-2, 3-4, 5-6). The engine now runs in COP mode.

Subaru made 3 different EZ series 6 cylinder engines.

2000-2003 EZ30D 1st generation no VVT
2003-2009 EZ30D 2nd generation VVT and variable lift on both intake cams
2010-present EZ36D VVT on both intake and both exhaust cams

With the cylinder count at 6, the "36-2-2-2" and the "Subaru 36-2-2-2 VVT" wheel decoders appear to both work the same. I know of one person currently running MS3/3X with the 1st generation EZ30D engine in full sequential COP mode just fine. But for the motors that have VVT, the coil and injector triggering appears to be out of phase by 360 crank degrees. I know of no one running an EZ30D 2nd generation or and EZ36D (my engine) that is running MS3 using full sequential and COP successfully.

Is it possible to have the "Subaru 36-2-2-2 VVT" decoder altered to accommodate the newer EZ30D 2nd generation and EZ36D engines that have VVT and are not working? This way MS can support all three Subaru 6 cylinder engines and not just the oldest EZ30D 1st generation.
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Re: Subaru 36-2-2-2 VVT not running in full seq / COP

Postby alpine226 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:04 pm

Seems like an up and coming combination as people are shoe horning these engines into wrxs, foresters, 818s and sand rails much more frequent for the simplicity and reliability of na over the turbo 4cyl.
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Re: Subaru 36-2-2-2 VVT not running in full seq / COP

Postby alpine226 » Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:19 pm

Maybe not the most elloquent solution but could the trigger offset limits be adjusted to allow plus or minus 360 degrees.
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Re: Subaru 36-2-2-2 VVT not running in full seq / COP

Postby jsiedlicki » Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:45 am

Apparently other ECU manufacturers have had to code for the EZ30D 2nd generation and EZ36D differently than the 1st generation EZ30D to account for the cam phasing differences as well. Here is a link to the NASIOC forums where a user had to have a Hydra ECU reset to run his 1st generation EZ30D as it was set to for the 2nd generation EZ30D, and would not fire.

https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18186729&postcount=992

This would seem to support my theory that the 1st generation EZ30D has a different cam phasing than the 2nd generation EZ30D and EZ36D (my motor).
MS3-Pro (6 cyclinder Subaru EZ36R)
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Re: Subaru 36-2-2-2 VVT not running in full seq / COP

Postby jsiedlicki » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:53 pm

I have attached a composite log done with "Log crank&cam" instead of the "Subaru 36-2-2-2 VVT" wheel to show both edges of the crank and cam clearly. I pulled all the plugs as well so there would not be any compression effects on the timing of the signals.

I have also been reading the 1.4.0 source code (the most recent available) for the 36-2-2-2 wheel decoder and it appears that TDC for cylinder #1 is set at tooth 26. I did a physical check on my motor and TDC for cylinder #1 happens at tooth 23. That would make all the trigger events off by 30 degrees, if I am reading the code correctly.
Attachments
Crank-n-Cam_RH_2017-12-16_12.46.38.csv
(31.73 KiB) Downloaded 2 times
MS3-Pro (6 cyclinder Subaru EZ36R)
MS2-extra (8 cyclinder Ford 347 stroker)
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Re: Subaru 36-2-2-2 VVT not running in full seq / COP

Postby alpine226 » Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:43 pm

My engine is disassembled and is an Ez30D first generation I turned #1 cylnder to tdc and the VR sensor was reading according to the attached link pbit #7 tooth. This is front right piston. https://goo.gl/images/ZzPwRE
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Re: Subaru 36-2-2-2 VVT not running in full seq / COP

Postby jsiedlicki » Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:57 pm

alpine226, I've seen that post/pic also, it has the wrong number of teeth in the drawing (its missing one) and is not numbered in the same way MS numbers its wheel. Can you count back from the double missing tooth (11 in your pic, moving toward 6) to the tooth aligned with the VR sensor when the motor is at TDC cylinder #1. It should be the fourth tooth back.
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Re: Subaru 36-2-2-2 VVT not running in full seq / COP

Postby jsiedlicki » Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:45 pm

I am confident that the decoder is 360 degrees out of phase for this engine. I took the 1.4.0 source code (since the 1.5.1 has not been released yet) and flipped the trigger teeth phase for the 36-2-2-2 decoder (only in the 6 cylinder section). After a quick re-compile I flashed the MS3-pro, reloaded my tune and the motor fired right up. Fully sequential fueling and COP ignition.

James - Can you please add the phase flip code to the 36-2-2-2 (6 cylinder section) so that the EZ30D 2nd generation and EZ36D motor can run correctly? Or you could change the phase in the 6 cylinder section of the 36-2-2-2 decoder when the spkmode == 57. Either works and will not effect current installs.

If you would like to see the minor tweak I make, let me know and I can send you the source changes.
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